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Why did God allow the Fall?


scardella

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All this talking about Eve and the new Eve, Mary, reminds me of a question that some have asked, and I've never been able to answer.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient and He creates the rules and the players and the natures of them all, why did God create Adam and Eve [b]as they were[/b] knowing that they would choose sin? For that matter, why create the angels who were to become demons as they were?

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Thy Geekdom Come

God created them knowing that even though they would introduce evil, He could bring about even greater good.

They had to be able to sin because in order to do anything freely, you must be able to abuse that freedom.

Since God wanted us to love Him, He wanted us to be free. Realizing what that meant, i.e., that we could abuse that freedom, He knew that creating us would still be a good and that in redeeming us, He could bring about an even greater good, and that in dying for us, He could bring about infinite good, pouring goodness forth for all eternity into His creation. :)

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[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 31 2005, 03:11 PM']God created them knowing that even though they would introduce evil, He could bring about even greater good.

They had to be able to sin because in order to do anything freely, you must be able to abuse that freedom.

Since God wanted us to love Him, He wanted us to be free.  Realizing what that meant, i.e., that we could abuse that freedom, He knew that creating us would still be a good and that in redeeming us, He could bring about an even greater good, and that in dying for us, He could bring about infinite good, pouring goodness forth for all eternity into His creation. :)
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Just a messy convoluted system. Why not have Utopia from start?

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Oct 31 2005, 05:25 PM']Just a messy convoluted system. Why not have Utopia from start?
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We did. We messed it up because we didn't trust God and thought we had to grasp for ourselves what He otherwise would freely offer us (and eventually did).

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At easter we are told "oh happy fault". This does not mean that the sin was good but that it would bring about a greater good. In Luke 7 I believe it is there is the woman washing Jesus feet . Jesus puts forth the principle that the one who is forgiven much is capable of greater love for God. His mercy increases our love.

One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house, and took his place at table.


[37] And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment,
[38] and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
[39] Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner."
[40] And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?"
[41] "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
[42] When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?"
[43] Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly."
[44] Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
[45] You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.
[46] You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
[[b]47] Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." [/b][48] And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

Our love of God is increased, therefore the beautific vision is increased n the heavenly glory.

Edited by thessalonian
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[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 31 2005, 07:41 PM']Free will means being able to fail.
We're not robots programmed to only do good.
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Whats wrong with only being able to do good? Wouldnt we just be free to do the good?

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[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:24 AM']Whats wrong with only being able to do good? Wouldnt we just be free to do the good?
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Well you are [b]always[/b] free to do the good. No matter what the circumstances are, I am always allowed to do the good. In fact, doing anything other than the good is considered an abuse of free will. Free will when used appropriately leads one towards greater union with God.

Aside from that, if you are only able to walk in a straight line, are you then free to walk in a curvy one? I find that the answer would be no. If we had to walk in a straight line there would be no choice for the other, and therefore no freedom in the situation but rather simply following a path to its logical conclusion. Free will is the ability to walk in a straight line, a curvy one, or to sit still and do nothing at all.

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[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:27 AM']Well you are [b]always[/b] free to do the good. No matter what the circumstances are, I am always allowed to do the good. In fact, doing anything other than the good is considered an abuse of free will. Free will when used appropriately leads one towards greater union with God.

Aside from that, if you are only able to walk in a straight line, are you then free to walk in a curvy one? I find that the answer would be no. If we had to walk in a straight line there would be no choice for the other, and therefore no freedom in the situation but rather simply following a path to its logical conclusion. Free will is the ability to walk in a straight line, a curvy one, or to sit still and do nothing at all.
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To me in a world with no evil there is still free will. I think the point Christians want to make is that if you didn't have evil than you couldn't conceiveably reject God. But I assert that even if you live in a world with no evil you could still reject God. just because there is no evil does not mean that everyone is required to love each other. You can respect someone and not love them. You could respectful choose not to believe in God.

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[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:41 AM']To me in a world with no evil there is still free will. I think the point Christians want to make is that if you didn't have evil than you couldn't conceiveably reject God. But I assert that even if you live in a world with no evil you could still reject God. just because there is no evil does not mean that everyone is required to love each other. You can respect someone and not love them. You could respectful choose not to believe in God.
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Oh yes...of course there could be free will without evil. I do not think that anyone here would reject that at all. The problem is that we misuse our free will as I pointed out earlier. Free will, when use correctly, only does the good. Free will abused leads to sin and evil. It is possible to concieve of a world where we use free will correctly, for that is Heaven, but here on earth we have messed things up.

Does free will neccesitate the existence of evil? No. Does it make is a possibility? Yes, of course. We humans in our failing have actualized that possibility.

Also by definition, performing a sin, or an evil, is a rejection of God for some lesser good.

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Guest JeffCR07

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:41 AM']To me in a world with no evil there is still free will. I think the point Christians want to make is that if you didn't have evil than you couldn't conceiveably reject God. But I assert that even if you live in a world with no evil you could still reject God. just because there is no evil does not mean that everyone is required to love each other. You can respect someone and not love them. You could respectful choose not to believe in God.
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The above is incoherent for the following reason: in any intellectual discussion, you [i]must[/i] grant the person you are discussing with the opportunity to properly define and clarify terms. For any Christian, "sin" [i]means[/i] "choosing against God" and "evil" [i]is[/i] the result of sin.

Thus, it is obvious that there could never exist a world in which no evil exists, but people can still choose against God. This assertion is definitionally true.

Now, this having been said, it is clear that many people are confused regarding the relation of sin and free will.

The ability to sin is not a necessary aspect of free will, rather, it is a radical possibility resulting from the having of two wills (namely, a will-for-justice and a will-for-happiness), which is a momentary precondition of self-initiated action. This self-initiated action is a necessary basis for free will, but is not itself free will. Thus, once a self-initiated action has been had, free will can be perfected in such a way as to disallow the ability to sin.

Thus, the Fall is a radical possibility that is a result of preconditions for free will, but has nothing to do with free will itself. If anyone is interested in further information on this subject, or would like to discuss it, feel free to PM me.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

Edited by JeffCR07
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why would God want to create puppets, whom he can control and manipulate?? would that truly be a creation worthy of awe? or would a creation wherein there are creatures who are given the gift of free will and so and either choose or deny God, be more impressive?

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[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 1 2005, 10:41 AM']To me in a world with no evil there is still free will. I think the point Christians want to make is that if you didn't have evil than you couldn't conceiveably reject God. But I assert that even if you live in a world with no evil you could still reject God. just because there is no evil does not mean that everyone is required to love each other. You can respect someone and not love them. You could respectful choose not to believe in God.
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I think you're assuming that non-love of God can be neutral. We know from the bible that this isn't true. If you don't love God, you [b]hate[/b] him.

Anyone know the passage I'm talking about?

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I've had this argument so many times...it always seems to boil down to "why did God make me?" If God wanted a sin-free world, He would have had to leave me out of it. How could I want that?

Why did God make creatures He knew would reject Him? Because even Satan's existence is good. Of course, the entirety of his will is evil, and everything he has done with his existence is evil, but it is good that he exists. If not, God would stop creating Him. Remember, God wouldn't have to fight to defeat Satan forever, He would only have to stop holding him in existence.

But as God's creative love formed space and time, He found it good to create beings that could tell Him "I love you too." Not because He needs us, but because He loves us without need. And us He will fight for!

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