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Semalsia

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"If the knowledge of a God is the most necessary, why is it not the most evident and the clearest?"
- Percy Bysshe Shelley


Why do you think it's so hard for some to see that there is a god? How do you explain it without a godless universe?

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Well...

This probably isn't very charitable of me, but the athiests I have known have been very invested in the idea of there [i]not[/i] being a God. I don't know anyone who has given the possiblity of God a decent chance that didn't wind up religious.

:idontknow:

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It is the most evident thing...Romans 1:20

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

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All the atheists I know invest more effort in the belief that God doesn't exits than Christians invest in the blief that he does exist.

Agnostics I can respect...atheists are self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...

Edited by T-Bone
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1. It is evident that God exists.

2. Faith is a gift from God, and like all things, you have to take care of your gift or it gets waisted.

3. God choses the manners in which He reveals Himself. If we are closed minded, we will not see His presence when He does.

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Oh you are saying that it isn't hard. Ok...

So all the atheist are simply lying about it? In denial? Or what?


[quote name='Cow of Shame']How is it that some atheists don't realize that atheism itself is a religion?[/quote]
Well I haven't realized that, so please do explain why atheism is a religion.

I know you are talking about the claim "there is no god". Why is this a unreasonable claim?


[quote name='T-Bone']atheists are self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...[/quote]

I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.

Yes, I'm talking about lack of belief. I don't really see much of a difference between agnostics and atheists.


[quote name='Didacus']It is evident that God exists.[/quote]

Why? It isn't evident to atheists.

[quote name='Didacus']If we are closed minded, we will not see His presence when He does.[/quote]

How is that possible? How is it possible not to see or hear God? You just said it was evident.

Edited by Semalsia
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[quote name='philothea' date='Nov 2 2005, 07:57 PM']Well...

This probably isn't very charitable of me, but the athiests I have known have been very invested in the idea of there [i]not[/i] being a God.  I don't know anyone who has given the possiblity of God a decent chance that didn't wind up religious.

:idontknow:
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[/quote]


Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included. Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.

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[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Nov 3 2005, 12:03 AM']How is it that some atheists don't realize that atheism itself is a religion?
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It is not a religion. Thats just something theist like to say to upset Atheist. Like 'you believe in nothing'. Makes no sense at all.

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[quote name='T-Bone' date='Nov 3 2005, 04:33 AM']All the atheists I know invest more effort in the belief that God doesn't exits than Christians invest in the blief that he does exist.
[/quote]

I can say that maybe Christians would open their eyes if they invested time in the idea that God doesn't exist. So I can throw the same thing as you have and label it 'ignorance'.


[quote]Agnostics I can respect.
[/quote]

How about an Agnostic Atheist?


[quote]self appointed "intelectuals" who cannot support thier own arguements...
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[/quote]

Sounds like the proponents for Intelligent Design.

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You can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.

Umm.... question ..... if many atheists were believers at one time, what happened to them? Intelligence should lead to God because, as we believe, he is the source and the Creator and is thus intelligent.

Why would intelligence lead you to decide that God didn't exist?

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So....why are you an athiest then?

A guy a ran into here on campus recently came from a position of growing up Christian, becoming athiest, and then read texts of John Paul II on Fides et Ratio and found the answers he was convinced weren't out there.

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[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:47 AM']Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included.  Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.
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Might I inquire what knowledge that was that led you to your current state of belief?

I would also recommend this thread uses the Summa for discussion here. It seems to work from empirical evidence.

Semalsia
[quote]I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.
[/quote]

Please clarify my misunderstanding, because I was quite convinced that atheism denied the existence of God, which is indeed a claim. It is quite possible that I am mistaken in what atheism holds true, but it must hold something true otherwise it is simply radical skepticism (the type that Sextus Empiricus held) which has been proven time and time again to be wrong.

So if atheism is not skepticism but does indeed hold something true, it must have demonstrations and definitions to defend it. In other words, it must have arguements in the philosophical sense.

Edited by Paphnutius
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[quote name='Paphnutius']Please clarify my misunderstanding, because I was quite convinced that atheism denied the existence of God, which is indeed a claim.[/quote]

Some atheist do deny the existence of God and so need an argument for their claim. However, some atheists don't deny the existence of God, but simply don't believe in one. And that's pretty much what I'm talking in this thread. Everyone is born an atheist, because they can't believe in something they don't have knowledge of. It's a lack of views concerning God.

Everything else is extra.

Edited by Semalsia
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