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Thy Geekdom Come

Gabriel Hahn just told me that the Church defined not only that Mary had no labor pains, but that Jesus never opened the birth canal.

Apparently, virginity refers not only to things entering, but going out.

Who knew? :idontknow: No one had ever told me.

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Nov 11 2005, 10:07 PM']Gee... Even I knew that...
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:idontknow: I had heard that the birth was painless, but I didn't know it was a matter of defined doctrine.

I knew nothing about that definition of virginity.

I feel quite worthless and inadequate now. :(

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it isn't a matter of defined doctrine, that's why you didn't know it.

the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity does not refer to biological virginity, but the fact that she never knew man. Christ probably opened the birth canal. what, was there a c-section? did Scotty beam Him out? it's a virgin BIRTH, he was born.

just because it's Gabriel Hahn, doesn't mean you don't ask for proof.

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This legend comes from the Protoevangelium of James.

[quote]And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit. And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things -- because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

[url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/stj20001.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/stj20001.htm[/url][/quote]

Like the question of Joseph's state before his marriage to Our Lady, it is nothing more than pious speculation.

Edited by Era Might
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[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 09:41 PM'] what, was there a c-section?  did Scotty beam Him out?
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I thought at that point in history, the Caesarian Section was relatively new and probably unknown in Judea.

As for a beam-out, There was an episode of voyager where this was done in an emergency situation.

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[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM']it isn't a matter of defined doctrine, that's why you didn't know it.

the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity does not refer to biological virginity, but the fact that she never knew man.  Christ probably opened the birth canal.  what, was there a c-section?  did Scotty beam Him out?  it's a virgin BIRTH, he was born.

just because it's Gabriel Hahn, doesn't mean you don't ask for proof.
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Good call, Aloysius!

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM']just because it's Gabriel Hahn, doesn't mean you don't ask for proof.
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I don't demand proof from everyone like you do.

I suppose it would go to the definition of "virgin" the Church meant in declaring Mary Ever-Virgin.

Anyone up for some research on that one?

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[quote]The virginity of our Blessed Lady was defined under anathema in the third canon of the Lateran Council held in the time of Pope Martin I, A.D. 649. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, as recited in the Mass, expresses belief in Christ "incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary"; the Apostles' Creed professes that Jesus Christ "was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary"; the older form of the same creed uses the expression: "born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary". These professions show:

    * That the body of Jesus Christ [b]was not sent down from Heaven[/b], nor taken from earth as was that of Adam, but that its matter was supplied by Mary;
    * that Mary co-operated in the formation of Christ's body as every other mother co-operates in the formation of the body of her child, since otherwise Christ could not be said to be born of Mary just as Eve cannot be said to be born of Adam;
    * that the germ in whose development and growth into the Infant Jesus, Mary co-operated, was fecundated not by any human action, but by the Divine power attributed to the Holy Ghost;
    * that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also [b]causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that "the Light from Light" proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the "power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that "the body of the Word" formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.[/b][/quote]

[color=#ff0066]From the Catholic Encyclopedia. Hope it helps a bit.[/color]

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Thy Geekdom Come

Hmmm...

You know, since she was a virgin, giving birth would have caused the hymen to break, causing some pain. As I understand it, she wouldn't have had pain in labor. Even if Christ did open the birth canal, it seems miraculous that He didn't cause pain...I'm not sure what the doctrine is.

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 12 2005, 03:17 PM']Twilight zone theme starts playing in the background.

:)
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:unsure:





:ninja:

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Umm... actually, Gabriel is right

In discussing the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the Church says that she was virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus. What Gabriel is refering to is virginity during the birth. Of course this doesn't mean that she had a c-section, but that her virginity, including the physical manisfestations thereof, was not affected or diminished in the birth.

[url="http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=102"]Here's[/url] one thing from the reference section that discusses it:

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photosynthesis

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 11 2005, 09:06 PM']Gabriel Hahn just told me that the Church defined not only that Mary had no labor pains, but that Jesus never opened the birth canal.

Apparently, virginity refers not only to things entering, but going out.

Who knew? :idontknow: No one had ever told me.
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I've never, ever heard anyone refer to virginity in that way. If Jesus never opened the birth canal, there's no way he could have been born.

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 11 2005, 09:41 PM']it isn't a matter of defined doctrine, that's why you didn't know it.

the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity does not refer to biological virginity, but the fact that she never knew man.  Christ probably opened the birth canal.  what, was there a c-section?  did Scotty beam Him out?  it's a virgin BIRTH, he was born.

just because it's Gabriel Hahn, doesn't mean you don't ask for proof.
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Yeah, definitely a good call on that one. :cool:

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 12 2005, 01:32 PM']Hmmm...

You know, since she was a virgin, giving birth would have caused the hymen to break, causing some pain.  As I understand it, she wouldn't have had pain in labor.  Even if Christ did open the birth canal, it seems miraculous that He didn't cause pain...I'm not sure what the doctrine is.
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The breaking of the hymen is not THAT painful. Most women don't even notice. Who says Mary even had a hymen? Some women don't have them. Also, the hymen can break if a woman is riding a horse, doing gymnastics, or some other intense physical activity that involves stretching.

I was never taught anything about this subject in catechism, and I haven't read much about it so I might be ignorant, but I always imagined Mary experiencing pain in labor. She is the co-redemptix who suffered [i]with[/i] Christ. In Rosary meditation, I always imagined her suffering the pain of labor so that Christ could come into the world and die for our sins, and in this pain (along with the pain she suffered with Him while He was being tortured and crucified) she suffered with Him and her suffering was redemptive.

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