*blink*

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 12 2005, 05:09 PM']sorry, not what I meant, just seemed like you were just accepting it because the guy said so
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Yeah. I'm actually inclined to agree, but I hate accepting something as defined when it's not almost as much as I hate rejecting something defined...so I'd like to see the definition.

[Didymus]

I was always taught that it is still debated by Church theologians whether or not the Blessed Virgin had labor pains. Who is John refering to in Revelation when he says that the woman cried out in labor? (Rhetorical question)

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Nov 12 2005, 03:32 PM']I would also like to point out that the Fathers see a link between Christ entering the upper room where the apostles were hiding through a closed door and Christ entering the world through an undefiled womb.
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But is there a difference before and after the Resurrection of His Body?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Didymus' date='Nov 12 2005, 04:45 PM']I was always taught that it is still debated by Church theologians whether or not the Blessed Virgin had labor pains.  Who is John refering to in Revelation when he says that the woman cried out in labor?  (Rhetorical question)
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I always thought that referred to her cries of "labor" pains as the Church was being born... ie at the crucifixion.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 12 2005, 02:35 PM']I've never, ever heard anyone refer to virginity in that way.  If Jesus never opened the birth canal, there's no way he could have been born.
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whoops, I just read this and caught my error... of course, God is omnipotent and so he technically COULD have done this.

I just have trouble imagining how it would work, or why He would choose to do this.

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 12 2005, 03:00 PM']I don't have any problem if this is the case, I just want to know where the defined doctrines of the Church specifically address it.

Having never understood birth as a violation of virginity, it doesn't make any sense to me that this is the necessary understanding either of the Scriptures or of the Mary Ever-Virgin doctrine (since birth, in my understanding, doesn't violate virginity).
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yeah, I never understood birth as a violation of virginity either...