321 replies to this topic

[KnightofChrist]

Who here has the gutts to say to a heretic that he is a heretic and not only should heretics not be allowed Holy Commuion but Excommunicated. Why do most Bishops do nothing do they fear men more than God?

What are yall's thoughts on the matter of protecting Holy Mother Church from the cancer of unholy heretics?

[Paphnutius]

I would say that pro-choice Catholics are dissenters not heretics. They do not deny an essential dogma, but rather dissent from a teaching of the Church. Of course, I could be mistaken.

[Nathan]

They shouldn't be "kicked out" of the Church. However, they should be denied communion until they accept the Church's teaching on this matter, for the sake of their souls.

Edited by Nathan, 27 December 2005 - 09:48 PM.

[Church Punk]

I think that many people that claim to be Pro Choice are probably ignorant to the actual facts of the situation of abortion and contraception.

I know during high school, it was not really taught to us very well (for a while) what the actual stance of the Church was and why! and it was a Catholic school! it was not until Gr 11 that I actually got the offical Chruch stance and shown the videos of abortion and the aftermaths. I think that a lot of people become pro choice based on the fact that they are being drawn to conclusions from their own logic based upon the information that they have been presented with. Many priest are not speaking out in full on this subject which adds to this notion.

If the people attend mass on Sunday at the same church and do not seek any further investigation into the offical stance of the Church they can be mis lead due to the clergy not drawing out the moral stance of the Church in full.

However I do feel that each of us has the responsiblity to seek and find the truth for our selfs through the Church and not just take someones word for it.

[KnightofChrist]

I would say that pro-choice Catholics are dissenters not heretics. They do not deny an essential dogma, but rather dissent from a teaching of the Church. Of course, I could be mistaken.

please you all should know there is no difference in "teaching" and Dogma. Public Pro-Choice "catholics" deine that the child in the womb is a Child, they deine the Soul of that Child in doing so deine God. This makes them if you see it or not a Heretic.

How many babies will it take for people to stand up and rid Mother Church of this Cancer... Heretics should not be allowed to be called Catholic when their anti-christian beliefs go agaist every teaching of The Holy Catholic Church! We must stop being "nice" to those that SLAUTER MILLIONS OF OUR CHILDREN!!!!

If murdering millions of Children is not enuff to make one a Heretic I ask you all WHAT DOES???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

THink about it people!!!! STAND UP FOR THE UNBORNS RIGHTS not those that would kill them!!!! Millions opon millions of wittle babies are DEAD because of Pro-choice "catholics", why is The Church not allowed to rid Herself of this Cancer?

[KnightofChrist]

her·e·tic (hĕr'ĭ-tĭk) pronunciation
n.

A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma (or teaching) of the Roman Catholic Church.

[Myles Domini]

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. --Catechism of the Catholic Church 2272

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. -- Code of Canon Law 1983

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3. -- Code of Canon Law 1983

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication. -- Code of Canon Law 1983

INXC
Myles

[Lounge Daddy]

I think that many people that claim to be Pro Choice are probably ignorant to the actual facts of the situation of abortion and contraception.

very very true
and i would say general Catholics who claim to be pro-choice... yes, dissenters
but those jerks who set up "pro-choice Catholics for Kerry" ... they deserve special attention - the same goes for radio personalities like Alan Colmes, and Ellis Henican - and naturally politicians like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, and other public figures ... these are people that lead by example and influence others... and they therefor spread thier error like a virus
an excommunication would be appropriate

[lifescanticle]

Who here has the gutts to say to a heretic that he is a heretic and not only should heretics not be allowed Holy Commuion but Excommunicated.  Why do most Bishops do nothing do they fear men more than God?

What are yall's thoughts on the matter of protecting Holy Mother Church from the cancer of unholy heretics?

As i understnad it excommunication is used as a last resort and only when it is believed that the individual will not become united with the Church. I doubt that most Bishops fear man more than God. If they were to excommunicate an individual that could return to a state of grace then that would be a shame.

[Ora et Labora]

Isnt what Myles just quoted a proof that they excommunicate themselves if they are active pro-choicers??

And if they still recieve communion...well...that is there decision.

[Akalyte]

John Kerry is suppose to be getting charged with heresy..

[KnightofChrist]

As i understnad it excommunication  is used as a last resort and only when it is believed that the individual will not become united with the Church. I doubt that most Bishops fear man more than God. If they were to excommunicate an individual that could return to a state of grace then that would be a shame.

Again how many Children will die, before this "last resort" of yours is used? You think, that murdering close to 50 million unborn would call for such a "last resort" so I ask you how many will it take for you? Billions? Billions opon Billions?

I believe that indeed Bishops do fear the press or men more than God, if the Bishops stood up agaist people like Kenndy and Kerry and Excommunicated them the press would raise hell! I believe the Bishops fear this alot, and there-for do nothing to stop these Pro-Death "catholics". If the Bishops do Excommunicate an public individual then later the individual truly repents they can be let back in full to Holy Mother Church.

Isnt what Myles just quoted a proof that they excommunicate themselves if they are active pro-choicers??

And if they still recieve communion...well...that is there decision.

No it is the Priest' and Bishops decision to allow an excommunicated heretic communion.

I dont understand if you saw... say John Kerry go into a room filled with babies and blow them all away, and not just once but everyday for 30 sum years since 1973 and then He says it was his choice or the people that put him in office told him to do that and the Church has no say in the matter because his public and private life are completly different.

Would you then invite him over for supper and eat with him? Would you let him in your house? As for now YOU DO! And in the house of GOD at Mass of all places!!!!! SHAME!!!! SHAME!!! Shame on you all that do not have the Gutts to fight evil!

[Matty_boy]

I think we should burn them for witchcraft!

Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt.
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant 3: ...I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!

[KnightofChrist]

I think we should burn them for witchcraft! 

Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt.
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant 3: ...I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!

I think not. If were "burn" the Heretics we become like them. I simply believe Heretics should not be allowed in Church and spread their cancer of evil. As for burning, what do you think they do with all thouse little babies they murder? The burn them, like they were nothing... A "witchhunt" is on, and it is the Heretics buring the unborn after they murder them. The "witch" in this case is millions of unborn babes, and Heretics dont give titles like "her", shes just an "IT" to them... so they say burn "IT" burn "IT" all.
The Abortion Holocaust is not a joke Matty boy. I am not Hunting witches... I fight whose Heretics that Hunt my brothers and sisters not yet born!

[dspen2005]

Who here has the gutts to say to a heretic that he is a heretic and not only should heretics not be allowed Holy Commuion but Excommunicated.  Why do most Bishops do nothing do they fear men more than God?

What are yall's thoughts on the matter of protecting Holy Mother Church from the cancer of unholy heretics?

we, faithful, do not have a right to refer to someone as a heretic. Declarations of heresy are reserved only to the Local Ordinary. to assume such a power and to state that one is a heretic is to place oneself above the authority and wisdom of Holy Mother Church. I, personally, do not want to presume to place myself in such a position, when I do not have the authority to do so.

[KnightofChrist]

we, faithful, do not have a right to refer to someone as a heretic.  Declarations of heresy are reserved only to the Local Ordinary.  to assume such a power and to state that one is a heretic is to place oneself above the authority and wisdom of Holy Mother Church.  I, personally, do not want to presume to place myself in such a position, when I do not have the authority to do so.

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

[Cam42]

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

There is a difference between heresy and excommunication that you are failing to make. This difference is that while one may be excommunicated, he may not be denying a truth that is definitive and taught by the Magisterium.

The Church does not include heresy as one of the criteria that Myles listed. This is done for a reason. Also you are making a mistake in your understanding of formal participation.

Here is how I think that you are making your mistakes.

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor.

The second mistake that you are making is that you are equating support with formal participation. They are most certainly not the same. One cannot be excommunicated unless he participates in a formal way by incurring an abortion. Support for abortion does not do that.

If you would have said that one who has had an abortion has incurred excommunication latae sententiae, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, even those I would be very careful in calling a heretic.

However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity.

Also, the faithful don't have the right declare one a heretic. This can only be done by the heirarchy of the Church. However, even then those who are in leadership roles should be very careful in using or tagging one as a heretic.

If you notice, in the modern application of excommunication, the use of the term heresy is rare. Why, because of catechesis. They cannot judge one's true understanding of the issue. At best, they would call the act incredulous.

So, I think that you are making two mistakes in your thinking.

1. Incredulity v. heresy
2. support of the action v. formal participation


N.B. Incidentally, I cast a null vote, because I believe that you didn't include the proper choices.

[Akalyte]

Again how many Children will die, before this "last resort" of yours is used?  You think, that murdering close to 50 million unborn would call for such a "last resort" so I ask you how many will it take for you? Billions?  Billions opon Billions? 

I believe that indeed Bishops do fear the press or men more than God, if the Bishops stood up agaist people like Kenndy and Kerry and Excommunicated them the press would raise hell!  I believe the Bishops fear this alot, and there-for do nothing to stop these Pro-Death "catholics".  If the Bishops do Excommunicate an public individual then later the individual truly repents they can be let back in full to Holy Mother Church. 
No it is the Priest' and Bishops decision to allow an excommunicated heretic communion.

I dont understand if you saw... say John Kerry go into a room filled with babies and blow them all away, and not just once but everyday for 30 sum years since 1973 and then He says it was his choice or the people that put him in office told him to do that and the Church has no say in the matter because his public and private life are completly different. 

Would you then invite him over for supper and eat with him?  Would you let him in your house?  As for now YOU DO!  And in the house of GOD at Mass of all places!!!!!  SHAME!!!! SHAME!!!  Shame on you all that do not have the Gutts to fight evil!

im not affraid to stand up against kennedy and kerry, ill be doing that plenty with my album, and they are getting a copy too..

[thedude]

I think an excommunication of public dissenters would send a public message that their is no spectrum of belief within the Church. I think John Kerry and the like lead people to believe that there is a legitimate right to disagree with the magisterium. To a confused Catholic, the lack of official response to pro-choice politicians may seem like tolerance. Of course to goal of any excommunication is to get the person to change their ways.

[zunshynn]

I'm the way I am today because someone had the guts to call me a heretic... actually because of this same topic. I said something a long the lines of "everyone has a right to recieve communion."



I didn't like it at the time, but I'm better for it now so to gutsy people!

I cringe when I think now about how I've desecrated the Eucharist. I wish someone had had the courage to tell me sooner...

Edited by zunshynn, 02 January 2006 - 02:42 PM.