Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Dec 29 2005, 03:12 PM']we, faithful, do not have a right to refer to someone as a heretic.  Declarations of heresy are reserved only to the Local Ordinary.  to assume such a power and to state that one is a heretic is to place oneself above the authority and wisdom of Holy Mother Church.  I, personally, do not want to presume to place myself in such a position, when I do not have the authority to do so.
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Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. [color=red]Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority. [/color]

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 30 2005, 02:11 AM']Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. [color=red]Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority. [/color]

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)
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There is a difference between heresy and excommunication that you are failing to make. This difference is that while one may be excommunicated, he may not be denying a truth that is definitive and taught by the Magisterium.

The Church does not include heresy as one of the criteria that Myles listed. This is done for a reason. Also you are making a mistake in your understanding of formal participation.

Here is how I think that you are making your mistakes.

[quote name='CCC 2089']Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."[/quote]

I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor.

The second mistake that you are making is that you are equating support with formal participation. They are most certainly not the same. One cannot be excommunicated unless he participates in a formal way by incurring an abortion. Support for abortion does not do that.

If you would have said that one who has had an abortion has incurred excommunication latae sententiae, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, even those I would be very careful in calling a heretic.

However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity.

Also, the faithful don't have the right declare one a heretic. This can only be done by the heirarchy of the Church. However, even then those who are in leadership roles should be very careful in using or tagging one as a heretic.

If you notice, in the modern application of excommunication, the use of the term heresy is rare. Why, because of catechesis. They cannot judge one's true understanding of the issue. At best, they would call the act incredulous.

So, I think that you are making two mistakes in your thinking.

1. Incredulity v. heresy
2. support of the action v. formal participation


N.B. Incidentally, I cast a null vote, because I believe that you didn't include the proper choices.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 28 2005, 12:13 PM']Again how many Children will die, before this "last resort" of yours is used?  You think, that murdering close to 50 million unborn would call for such a "last resort" so I ask you how many will it take for you? Billions?  Billions opon Billions? 

I believe that indeed Bishops do fear the press or men more than God, if the Bishops stood up agaist people like Kenndy and Kerry and Excommunicated them the press would raise hell!  I believe the Bishops fear this alot, and there-for do nothing to stop these Pro-Death "catholics".  If the Bishops do Excommunicate an public individual then later the individual truly repents they can be let back in full to Holy Mother Church. 
No it is the Priest' and Bishops decision to allow an excommunicated heretic communion.

I dont understand if you saw... say John Kerry go into a room filled with babies and blow them all away, and not just once but everyday for 30 sum years since 1973 and then He says it was his choice or the people that put him in office told him to do that and the Church has no say in the matter because his public and private life are completly different. 

Would you then invite him over for supper and eat with him?  Would you let him in your house?  As for now YOU DO!  And in the house of GOD at Mass of all places!!!!!  SHAME!!!! SHAME!!!  Shame on you all that do not have the Gutts to fight evil!
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im not affraid to stand up against kennedy and kerry, ill be doing that plenty with my album, and they are getting a copy too..

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think an excommunication of public dissenters would send a public message that their is no spectrum of belief within the Church. I think John Kerry and the like lead people to believe that there is a legitimate right to disagree with the magisterium. To a confused Catholic, the lack of official response to pro-choice politicians may seem like tolerance. Of course to goal of any excommunication is to get the person to change their ways.

[zunshynn]

I'm the way I am today because someone had the guts to call me a heretic... actually because of this same topic. I said something a long the lines of "everyone has a right to recieve communion."



I didn't like it at the time, but I'm better for it now so to gutsy people!

I cringe when I think now about how I've desecrated the Eucharist. I wish someone had had the courage to tell me sooner...

Edited January 2, 2006 by zunshynn

[Matty_boy]

Take it easy Knight. I'm just having a little fun. I understand the seriousness of abortion. I didn't figure that anyone would be offended by such a light-hearted and completely rediculous post.

[KnightofChrist]

[color=blue]Cam42 - There is a difference between heresy and excommunication that you are failing to make. This difference is that while one may be excommunicated, he may not be denying a truth that is definitive and taught by the Magisterium.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - However the Public & political Pro-choice "catholics" whom believe in the heresy of Abortion indeed deny a truth as definitive and taught by the Magisterium.[/color]



[color=blue]Cam42 - The Church does not include heresy as one of the criteria that Myles listed. This is done for a reason.
[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - Abortion is a Heresy, what is your reasoning that it is not? [/color]



[color=blue]Cam42 - Also you are making a mistake in your understanding of formal participation.
Here is how I think that you are making your mistakes. Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I make no mistake in my understanding of ³formal participation². Public and political Pro-Choice ³catholics² do indeed make a formal participation in the act of all abortions with-in the United States.


Does Christ not say, ³If I man comments lust with his eyes he as already commented adultery.² What if Hitler never physically murdered one Jew with his bare hands; does that mean he is not guilty of murdering millions? Also if a man pays another to kill his wife does the husband comment murder or just the paid killer?


My point is this, Political Pro-Choice or Public Pro-Choice ³catholics² may have never actually ripped the Child from the womb. But they have indeed funded abortion clinics, try to pass and have passed laws to make abortion easier, and they fight and strike down any pro-life law. Which is worse than the actual ³act² itself, for if it was not for the pro-abortion laws passed and funded by these so-called ³catholics² millions of children would be alive today! To top it off they have made their own Creedo ³We believe in Abortion² that goes against God and every believe of Holy Mother Church, and that Sir is Heresy! You are blind if you can not see heresy as it is today! Shame on you.[/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - I would posit that one, who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying.[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - I would posit that you Sir at best are guilty of sympathizing with Evil, defending whose that murder millions. If you do not believe those who support abortion are theologically obstinate something is wrong with your thinking.[/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - This is illrelevent, this is an excuse and an poor one at that. The ones teaching this poor catehesis are leading others to hell that is all that means. [/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - The second mistake that you are making is that you are equating support with formal participation. They are most certainly not the same. One cannot be excommunicated unless he participates in a formal way by incurring an abortion. Support for abortion does not do that.[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - They most certainly are one in the sameŠ no wait support is worse!!! Those whom fund planned parent-hood and other abortion mills are guilty of murder. Just as a man who pays another is guilty of murder. Those who passed laws for Abortion Mills and fright against Pro-Life bills are guilty of Murder! Just as, Hitler was guilty of Murder for making laws that helped Nazis murder millions of Jews. Many if not all Abortion Mills could not comment this Holocaust without the ³incurring² support of political pro-choice ³catholics². Why can you not see this, why do you make yourself willfully blind to this fact?[/color]



[color=blue]
Cam42 - If you would have said that one who has had an abortion has incurred excommunication latae sententiae, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, even those I would be very careful in calling a heretic. [/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - Again you Sir are sympathizing with Evil. How would you ³wholeheartedly agree² yet be careful in calling them a heretic?[/color]



[color=blue]
Cam42 - However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - That¹s right I¹m calling for the excommunication of evil men, whom reject God and His creation. It is not that simple their ³support² that calls for their excommunication it goes much further than their saying ³I support² and there support of evil is evil, if one supports the murder of his brother he is a murder. Just as again if a man comments lust for a woman he has already commented adultery! [/color]



[color=blue]
Cam42 - Also, the faithful don't have the right declare one a heretic. This can only be done by the heirarchy of the Church.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I did not ³declare² political pro-choice ³catholics² Heretics, Canon Law has, get it straight man! Father Corapi of EWTN calls them Heretics. Am I to believe you over a Priest?
[/color]



[color=blue]Cam42 - However, even then those who are in leadership roles should be very careful in using or tagging one as a heretic.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I agree that is rare but today they are far to carefully, they just want to sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away just like they did with the ³priest² that sexually abused Children. If the Bishops do nothing with the Abortion Heretics like they did nothing with the Sex Abuse Heretics then it will come back to haunt Holy Mother Church.[/color]



[color=blue]Cam42 - If you notice, in the modern application of excommunication, the use of the term heresy is rare. Why, because of catechesis. [/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - I have indeed notice this, and it is not because of the Catechesis it is because they fear the Press and political men![/color]




[color=blue]Cam42 - They cannot judge one's true understanding of the issue. At best, they would call the act incredulous.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - They have no need to ³judge one¹s true understanding² they only need look at the actions and the effects of a political pro-choice ³catholic² support and funding and passing laws murdering millions. After all their unholy actions have spoken louder than words ever could. Word that are still ³We believe in Abortion²
[/color]


[color=blue]Cam42 - So, I think that you are making two mistakes in your thinking
1. Incredulity v. heresy
2. support of the action v. formal participation
N.B. Incidentally, I cast a null vote, because I believe that you didn't include the proper choices. [/color]
[color=red]

KnightofChrist - I believe it is you, who is making a mistake in thinking.
1. You use ³incredulity² in attempt to sweep this heresy under the rug. Public Pro-Choice ³catholics² are guilty of heresy and are leading others to hell with them.
2. Support of the action as it is preformed by these ³catholics² is the same as formal participation, if not worse.[/color]

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 3 2006, 11:07 PM'][color=blue]Cam42 - There is a difference between heresy and excommunication that you are failing to make. This difference is that while one may be excommunicated, he may not be denying a truth that is definitive and taught by the Magisterium.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - However the Public & political Pro-choice "catholics" whom believe in the heresy of Abortion indeed deny a truth as definitive and taught by the Magisterium.[/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - The Church does not include heresy as one of the criteria that Myles listed. This is done for a reason.
[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - Abortion is a Heresy, what is your reasoning that it is not? [/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - Also you are making a mistake in your understanding of formal participation.
Here is how I think that you are making your mistakes.  Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I make no mistake in my understanding of ³formal participation².  Public and political Pro-Choice ³catholics² do indeed make a formal participation in the act of all abortions with-in the United States. 
Does Christ not say, ³If I man comments lust with his eyes he as already commented adultery.²  What if Hitler never physically murdered one Jew with his bare hands; does that mean he is not guilty of murdering millions?  Also if a man pays another to kill his wife does the husband comment murder or just the paid killer?
My point is this, Political Pro-Choice or Public Pro-Choice ³catholics² may have never actually ripped the Child from the womb.  But they have indeed funded abortion clinics, try to pass and have passed laws to make abortion easier, and they fight and strike down any pro-life law.  Which is worse than the actual ³act² itself, for if it was not for the pro-abortion laws passed and funded by these so-called ³catholics² millions of children would be alive today!  To top it off they have made their own Creedo ³We believe in Abortion² that goes against God and every believe of Holy Mother Church, and that Sir is Heresy!  You are blind if you can not see heresy as it is today!  Shame on you.[/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - I would posit that one, who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying.[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - I would posit that you Sir at best are guilty of sympathizing with Evil, defending whose that murder millions.  If you do not believe those who support abortion are theologically obstinate something is wrong with your thinking.[/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - This is illrelevent, this is an excuse and an poor one at that.  The ones teaching this poor catehesis are leading others to hell that is all that means. [/color]

[color=blue]Cam42 - The second mistake that you are making is that you are equating support with formal participation. They are most certainly not the same. One cannot be excommunicated unless he participates in a formal way by incurring an abortion. Support for abortion does not do that.[/color]
[color=red]
KnightofChrist - They most certainly are one in the sameŠ no wait support is worse!!!  Those whom fund planned parent-hood and other abortion mills are guilty of murder.  Just as a man who pays another is guilty of murder. Those who passed laws for Abortion Mills and fright against Pro-Life bills are guilty of Murder!  Just as, Hitler was guilty of Murder for making laws that helped Nazis murder millions of Jews.  Many if not all Abortion Mills could not comment this Holocaust without the ³incurring² support of political pro-choice ³catholics².  Why can you not see this, why do you make yourself willfully blind to this fact?[/color]
[color=blue]
Cam42 - If you would have said that one who has had an abortion has incurred excommunication latae sententiae, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, even those I would be very careful in calling a heretic. [/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - Again you Sir are sympathizing with Evil.  How would you ³wholeheartedly agree² yet be careful in calling them a heretic?[/color]
[color=blue]
Cam42 - However, you are calling for excommunication for those who simply support abortion laws. That is not so. That is why they are only guilty of incredulity.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - That¹s right I¹m calling for the excommunication of evil men, whom reject God and His creation.  It is not that simple their ³support² that calls for their excommunication it goes much further than their saying ³I support² and there support of evil is evil, if one supports the murder of his brother he is a murder.  Just as again if a man comments lust for a woman he has already commented adultery! [/color]
[color=blue]
Cam42 - Also, the faithful don't have the right declare one a heretic. This can only be done by the heirarchy of the Church.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I did not ³declare² political pro-choice ³catholics² Heretics, Canon Law has, get it straight man!  Father Corapi of EWTN calls them Heretics.  Am I to believe you over a Priest?
[/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - However, even then those who are in leadership roles should be very careful in using or tagging one as a heretic.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - I agree that is rare but today they are far to carefully, they just want to sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away just like they did with the ³priest² that sexually abused Children.  If the Bishops do nothing with the Abortion Heretics like they did nothing with the Sex Abuse Heretics then it will come back to haunt Holy Mother Church.[/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - If you notice, in the modern application of excommunication, the use of the term heresy is rare. Why, because of catechesis. [/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist - I have indeed notice this, and it is not because of the Catechesis it is because they fear the Press and political men![/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - They cannot judge one's true understanding of the issue. At best, they would call the act incredulous.
[/color]
[color=red]KnightofChrist - They have no need to ³judge one¹s true understanding² they only need look at the actions and the effects of a political pro-choice ³catholic² support and funding and passing laws murdering millions.  After all their unholy actions have spoken louder than words ever could.  Word that are still ³We believe in Abortion²
[/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - So, I think that you are making two mistakes in your thinking
1. Incredulity v. heresy
2. support of the action v. formal participation
N.B. Incidentally, I cast a null vote, because I believe that you didn't include the proper choices. [/color]
[color=red]

KnightofChrist - I believe it is you, who is making a mistake in thinking.
1. You use ³incredulity² in attempt to sweep this heresy under the rug.  Public Pro-Choice ³catholics² are guilty of heresy and are leading others to hell with them.
2. Support of the action as it is preformed by these ³catholics² is the same as formal participation, if not worse.[/color]
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Abortion is not a heresy, it is a mortal sin. Heresy properly defined is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same. Abortion is a sinful action, not a heretical action. Heresy is applied properly to teachings and viewpoints, not to physical actions.

You are making a mistake in your understanding of formal and material cooperation. Formal cooperation is the actual procurring of said action. Material cooperation is lesser. An example would be support of said action or something of like manner. The Church is clear about this and it is clear in making this part of it's definitons of who is excommunicated and who is not.

I am not sympathizing with evil. I am supporting the religous liberty of mankind. You are misunderstanding what is and what is not in this instance. You cannot simply lay out an excommunication. There is a procedure for that and there is a reason that it is rarely enacted. The determination of formal participation must be fully understood and proven.

I am not getting into a shouting match over your misunderstanding of Church teaching.

When you call for excommunication, which you don't have a right to do, by the way; you are asking for someone to be cut off from the Church. Which type of excommunication are you asking for? Because latae sententiae is incurred by the person himself, not you.

Show me where Canon Law calls pro-choice politicians heretics. I would like the Canon please. It is not there. I do have it straight. I don't pretend to be more than a priest, but my education may be better, then again, it may be worse. But because one is a priest doesn't make him infallible nor does it make him more qualified than me. We hold the same degrees. I am just as qualified as a priest to speak on this issue. I am just not as well known as some.

Again, to call one who supports abortion a heretic is an incorrect view of the terminology. Bishop Bruskewitz didn't excommunicate for heresy, but because the actions were outside the scope of morality. That was the sin.

[quote name='CCC #1463']Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/quote]

I do not use incredulity in any sense other than that defined in the Catechism. If you don't like it, I am sorry. However that doesn't change the accuracy of my position. Support of an action is not the same thing as actually procurring the action, in the case of abortion. Sorry, but you'd need to prove that this is the case; you cannot however, because the Church has taught that it is not. This is clearly outlined in Canon Law.

While I applaud your zeal, it is a bit askew. I would suggest that you get your facts straight and come to a greater understanding of formal and material cooperation (pariticipation). This is clearly defined, not only in distinction, but also in understanding several places within the teachings of the Church; most notably the CIC.

Also, I will say this. In no way do I support or condone abortion or someone being pro-choice. I am 100% pro-life. I also am 100% faithful to the teaching of the Church. Religous liberty is part of that faithfulness. When people start calling for excommunication, without just or accurate cause, then religous liberty is being compromised.

I don't have to call for one who has procurred an abortion to be excommunicated, it is automatic. Latae Sententiae.

[KnightofChrist]

HOW IS THIS NOT HERESY?


[img]http://bellsouthpwp2.net/v/o/voodookilla/01.gif[/img]


So... the Right to Life is not a "must" Truth and when baptized Pro-Choice "catholics" stubbornly adhere to an attitude or opinion or course of action that is contrary to Catholic teaching that is not "obstinate"?

Jesus Christ confirmed the definitive and irreformable moral precepts of the Ten Commandments, including the Fifth, “Thou Shalt Not Murder.” For 2,000 years, the Christian Church has everywhere, at all times, without waver, taught the grave immorality of every act of murder of the innocent.

So I guess in your understanding if a man pays another to murder his wife the husband is not gulity of murder just the support of murder. Mankind does not have the religious liberty to comment murder of unborn babies. The Second Vatican Council’s Declaration Dignitatis Humanae on Religious Liberty emphatically teaches that true freedom of conscience is only that based upon the truth. As such, the Council declares that the scope of immunity from coercion by civil authorities in matters of freedom of conscience and religion is limited universally in all places and times by objective moral norms and the just public order in conformity with the Natural Law, present in and known by the hearts of all men (DH§ 2, 7).


Applied to the so-called “right to abortion,” Vatican II teaches that no one has the right to commit murder by abortion under any pretext of freedom of conscience or religion, as the inalienable right to life is a right guaranteed by the Natural Law which exists independently of the Catholic Faith.


A person has the right to choose to be Christian or not. If one does choose to profess public adherence to the Christian Faith, then the profession of the right-to-murder heresy is wholly incompatible with the non-negotiable precept of the Fifth Commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Murder.”


Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”
The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority.
Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

Under Roman Catholic Church law, support of abortion rights constitutes the "Right-to-Murder" Heresy condemned by Pope John Paul II in the Encyclical Evangelium Vitae of 1995. Automatic Excommunication is the penalty incurred for this offense. Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.”


Obtaining an Abortion

Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.
Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.
Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Believing in Abortion

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
Unfortunately, some Catholics obstinately deny that abortion is always immoral, and some Catholics claim that abortion can, at times, be a morally-acceptable choice, and some Catholics claim that a person can, in good conscience, choose abortion. Under the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, canons 751 and 1364, all such Catholics are automatically excommunicated for the sin of heresy.
This sentence of latae sententiae excommunication applies to any Catholic who denies that abortion is gravely immoral, regardless of whether they keep this denial hidden or publicly reveal it.

Promoting Abortion

Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.
This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.
Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

Voting for Abortion

Any Catholic politician who casts a vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion, commits a mortal sin.
When such a vote indicates that the Catholic politician believes that abortion is not always gravely immoral, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canons 751 and 1364, because of heresy.
When such a vote is intended to have the effect of making abortion legal, or more easily obtainable, or more widely available, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canon 1398, as someone who is attempting to provide substantial or essential means for women to obtain abortions. Catholic politicians who pass laws which legalize, protect, or widen access to abortion, are providing essential assistance to women who want to obtain abortions.
It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are “personally opposed” to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.
The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.
However, if, for a period of time, Catholic politicians and voters are unable to enact a law prohibiting all abortion, then Catholic politicians and voters may in good conscience vote for whichever law offers the greatest restrictions and limits on abortion. Subsequently, Catholic politicians and voters are required by the moral law to continue to enact further restrictions and limits on abortion, to the greatest extent possible, and, at every possible opportunity, to vote for laws which completely outlaw abortion.


On a ending note I believe Father Corapi, I do not nor will I ever believe you. You are wrong. You are not a Priest. You are NOT as qualified as a priest to speak on this issue. You have all the degrees you want, your still wrong and Father Corapi is right. How someone like you can be so smart yet be so unwise and foolish is sad and shameful. I've tried my best to show you where Canon law declares Pro-Choices Politicians heretics but you've just poo poo'd it, basically. I pray that you get right with God and may He have mercy on your soul, brother. As it stands now you are sympathizing with evil, The Abortion Holocaust and thouse that carry it out.

Father Corapi - "Catholic office holders, whether presidents, senators, congressmen or congresswomen, or judges at any level must adhere to Catholic teaching or run the risk of separating themselves from the Body of Christ. In such egregious and chronic cases of gross moral evil such as instituting and perpetuating abortion and the structures of sin that surround it, it is quite probable that such Catholic officials are excommunicated in virtue of the acts themselves. A latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication is likely triggered when they vote for laws, funding, and structures that enable and perpetuate such obvious and egregious evil (cf. Code of Canon Law, Canons 1364,1398; Canon 1329, par. #2). They are in turn forbidden from approaching the sacraments as the result (cf. Catechism of Catholic Church #1463).

These persons must undoubtedly think that a fetus is not a human being. If they did, would they authorize and enable the wholesale and on-demand execution of tens of millions of the most innocent human beings in their mothers' wombs? If they think there is not a human being in the womb, then they do not believe what the Church believes, and that belief is not optional. Such a rejection of so fundamental a truth is tantamount to heresy (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church #2089), the automatic penalty for which is excommunication (cf. Code of Canon Law #1364). No further act of a bishop is required either, since the act of unbelief in itself is what triggers the severing of the member from the body. If, on the contrary, they think that indeed there is a human being in the womb, they are in a worse position, having knowingly and willingly fostered, facilitated, and perpetuated a human holocaust of unthinkable proportions."

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 27 2005, 08:27 PM']Who here has the gutts to say to a heretic that he is a heretic and not only should heretics not be allowed Holy Commuion but Excommunicated. [right][snapback]837303[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I do.

[Cam42]

KnightofChrist,

You have just proven my point for me. Thank you for your post.

I said:
[quote]Abortion is not a heresy, it is a mortal sin......Abortion is a sinful action, not a heretical action. Heresy is applied properly to teachings and viewpoints, not to physical actions.....I don't have to call for one who has procurred an abortion to be excommunicated, it is automatic. Latae Sententiae.[/quote]

You quote from Canon Law:
[quote]Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”[/quote]

You then state:
[quote]Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.[/quote]

There is nothing mentioned about heresy in either of these canons.

Just because both a heretic and a person who procurs a mortal sin are both excommunicated latae sententiae doesn't make them the same. You are making a logical error.

And this is PRECISELY the distinction between formal and material cooperation. This is the disinction I was making.
[quote]Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.  Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.[/quote]

That however is not the same as someone who says, "I am pro-choice." That is the clear distinction.

[quote]Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.[/quote]

You need to point to a document which states this explicitly. Again, you are forgetting the distinction between material and formal cooperation.

[quote]On a ending note I believe Father Corapi, I do not nor will I ever believe you. You are wrong. You are not a Priest. You are NOT as qualified as a priest to speak on this issue. You have all the degrees you want, your still wrong and Father Corapi is right. How someone like you can be so smart yet be so unwise and foolish is sad and shameful. I've tried my best to show you where Canon law declares Pro-Choices Politicians heretics but you've just poo poo'd it, basically. I pray that you get right with God and may He have mercy on your soul, brother. As it stands now you are sympathizing with evil, The Abortion Holocaust and thouse that carry it out.[/quote]

Gee, nice ad hominem. That invalidates your whole position. When you start attacking me and stop attacking the position, you lost all credibility. Dr. Janet Smith, Dr. Scott Hahn, and Dr. Theresa Farnan are not priests either, yet they can speak on the issue authoratatively. Your position is weakening. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, I would love to know where you cut and pasted that information from.

Again:
[quote]Automatic Excommunication is the penalty incurred for this offense. Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral.[/quote]

Speaks exactly to what I was saying. Notice heresy is not mentioned once in that statement.

[Didacus]

I nulled my vote.

I don't think they are heretics specifically.
Murderes, sure; but not heretics.

Pray for their souls.


Back to you Bob...

[Cam42]

[quote]Vatican Says Kerry Stance on Abortion Is Not Heresy

BOSTON, Oct. 19 - The Roman Catholic Church's official news service quoted an unnamed Vatican official on Tuesday as saying John Kerry was "not a heretic" for his stance on abortion rights.

The article by The Catholic News Service also quoted an unnamed Vatican official as saying Mr. Kerry was not about to be excommunicated because "you can incur excommunication" automatically "only if you procure or perform an abortion."

The article came after a conservative Catholic canon lawyer who is trying to get Mr. Kerry excommunicated publicized a letter that was drafted at the request of a high-ranking Vatican official, a letter that the lawyer said indicated that Mr. Kerry should be excommunicated because he supported abortion rights.

On Friday the canon lawyer, Marc Balestrieri, who heads a conservative Catholic group called De Fide, released a letter written to him by another American canon lawyer, the Rev. Basil Cole. Father Cole said he had written the letter at the request of a high-ranking official in the Vatican office responsible for matters of church doctrine, the Very Rev. Augustine Di Noia.

The letter said that "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy" and is "automatically excommunicated."

Mr. Balestrieri said Monday that the letter would bolster a complaint he filed in June with Mr. Kerry's home diocese, the Archdiocese of Boston, accusing Mr. Kerry of heresy and seeking to have him excommunicated.

But on Tuesday, Father Di Noia, an American priest who is highly influential in his position as under secretary of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, took steps to distance himself from the letter. He told The Catholic News Service that "the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. Balestrieri" and that Mr. Balestrieri's "claim that the private letter he received from Father Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit."

Father Di Noia's remarks to the news service seem to reflect a reluctance by at least some Vatican officials to be perceived as trying to meddle in an American presidential election, experts on the Vatican said.

"I think they know that if they intervene in the election in that direct a manner, it's very problematic diplomatically," said Chester Gillis, chairman of the theology department at Georgetown University.

Efforts to reach Father Di Noia on Tuesday were unsuccessful, but Mr. Balestrieri's and Father Cole's version of events suggest that his office did have contact with Mr. Balestrieri.

On Aug. 30, Mr. Balestrieri said, he went to Rome and met with the Rev. Diaz Pedro Miguel Funes, a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Mr. Balestrieri said that he asked whether someone who publicly supported abortion rights was guilty of heresy, even if the person was personally opposed to abortion, as Mr. Kerry is.

Mr. Balestrieri said he did not disclose to the Vatican that he was seeking to have Mr. Kerry excommunicated, but it is not clear whether Vatican officials knew about his effort, which received some news media attention over the summer.

In any case, Father Cole, an associate professor at the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, who described Father Di Noia as a friend, said he received an e-mail request from Father Di Noia several days after Mr. Balestrieri's visit.

"I was asked to write a letter as a friend to a friend," Father Cole said. "I had no idea the man was involved in the Kerry thing."

Mr. Balestrieri said that he called Father Di Noia last week to ask him if it was all right to publicize the letter. He said that Father Di Noia told him Father Cole's response was "excellent and solid" and that it could be published.

Father Cole said that last Friday, when Mr. Balestrieri released his letter to a Catholic television station, Father Di Noia sent Father Cole an e-mail message that said something like: "By the way, there was something on television. I'm sorry I got you into this mess. You're going to have people calling you ."

Father Cole said he thought Father Di Noia's comments on Tuesday indicated he was "distancing himself from it as an official." He explained: "There's a distinction in Rome when something's official and when something is off the record. This was off the record."[/quote]

Here is what the Church teaches about abortion:

[quote name='CCC #2271']Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC #2272'] Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC #2274']Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."[/quote]

[quote name='CCC #2322']From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.[/quote]

Notice that there is no mention of heresy. This is upheld by Msgr. DiNoia. I support the Church's position.

[KnightofChrist]

My positon is not weaken rather it is yours. You failed to answer the questions which I asked. Since you have Degrees making you just as good to answer questions of faith as a priest you will not mind answering these question. Please answer the questions A or B and when the test is complete, fully, you may explain your answers below the test. Please dont wimp out aka "null" answering, be a man and answer A or B.

1. If a Man comments Lust in his eyes he has all ready commented Abultery?

A) Yes

B) No

2. Is Abortion Murder?

A) Yes

B) No

3. If a Man supports abortion in his eyes he has all ready commented
murder?

A) Yes

B) No

4. If a Catholic Man pays another to have his wife murdered, does the
husband comment murder?

A) Yes

B) No

5. If a Catholic Senator funds an Abortion Mill does the Senator comment
Murder(s)?

A) Yes

B) No

6. In WWII did Adolf Hitler comment genocide, even if he never physically
murdered one Jew?

A) Yes

B) No

7. Is Abortion genocide?

A) Yes

B) No

8. In WWII did Adolf Hitler comment murder of Millions in The Jewish
Holocaust even if he never physically murdered one Jew?

A) Yes

B) No

9. Is Abortion a Holocaust?

A) Yes

B) No

10. If Adolf Hitler had been Catholic would he have been gultiy of heresy?

A) Yes

B) No

11. Is the Right to Life a Truth that must be believed to be Catholic?

A) Yes

B) No

12. Is there a number of dead little babies where you will believe Abortion is a
Heresy?

A) Yes

B) No

[KnightofChrist]

My postion is weakend??? Yet you are backing your opinion with "unnamed Vatican officials"? That news story was nonsense, just to "attack" the Canon Lawer.

So in your flawed opinion Abortion laws and funding making abortion completely "legal" do not "Directly" affect as an end or means of all "Iegal" abortions?

And in your flawed opinion Passing Laws that directly affect or Court orders that directly effect Abortion in The Untied States is not "Formal cooperation"? The vast cases of abortions happen because of the formal cooperation of Untied States Law passed by Pro-Choice Lawmakers or Pro-Choice Judges.


more questions...

1. If a Catholic Man gives serial killer a gun so the serial killer can comment murder in a room full of Children, and the serial killer kills most if not all the childern does the Catholic Man comment murder as well?

A) Yes

B) No


If the "Catholic Man" is a Catholic Senator, and the "gun" is a Law making abortion legal and gives Funding for an Abortion Mill, and the "Serial Killer" is an Abortion Mill. Is the Catholic Senator still gulity of murder?

A) Yes

B) No