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Kismet

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[url="http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/citw.cgi/past-00269#AMERICAS"]http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/citw.cg...-00269#AMERICAS[/url]


Liberal archbishop installed in San Francisco. American Catholicism’s most progressive archdiocese this week warmly welcomed its new head and his message of inclusion. At Wednesday’s installation Mass in San Francisco, Archbishop George Niederauer was handed the crosier by his predecessor, Archbishop William Levada, who the Pope named last May to succeed him as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Quoting T.S. Eliot in his first homily to the city’s 425,000 Catholics, Archbishop Niederauer, 69, made his own the poet’s assessment of the Church: “She is tender where you would be hard, and hard where you would like to be soft.” The new Pope’s first major appointee in the United States indicated that Benedict’s recent encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, would “guide” his stewardship of a diocese known for its significant contingent of gay Catholics and its efforts in caring for the sufferers of HIV/Aids.

In an interview with The Tablet on Monday, Archbishop Niederauer spoke of his distaste for the labelling which he said had brought the American Church further from God and nearer to the dust.

Before being named bishop of Salt Lake City – home to 150,000 Catholics and the headquarters of the Mormon Church – in 1994, George Niederauer spent most of his priesthood in seminary work in his native Los Angeles. His nuanced interpretation of the Vatican’s November document banning gays from priestly formation has attracted the fury of church conservatives, one of whom recently castigated the archbishop’s appointment to San Francisco as “troubling” and called his position on the document as being analogous to the views of “dissenters”.

Speaking to the San Francisco Chronicle, Archbishop Niederauer said that, in his oversight of the archdiocesan seminary there, the document would come up “in the context of an entire programme of priestly training and formation, not as a headline item”. He reaffirmed his opinion on its contents, emphasising the importance of a seminary candidate being “able to maintain the appropriate boundaries … able to retain his commitment to that celibate relationship with Christ in priesthood”. He added that this “would be true, also, for the heterosexual candidate”. He also dismissed the hypothesis, prevalent in some US church circles, that the sexual orientation of priests was the prime cause for the abuse scandals. He said this was a “mistaken” construct that “doesn’t make sense”.

The first American bishop to acknowledge publicly that he had seen the controversial film Brokeback Mountain, which centres on the romance between two cowboys, the archbishop said he found it “very powerful”, seeing as one of its lessons “the destructiveness of not being honest with yourself, and not being honest with other people – and not being faithful, trying to live a double life, and what that does to each of the lives you try to live.”

Rocco Palmo, Philadelphia

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DeoOptimoMaximo

why oh why does his liberal aged generation, just not get it!! ????

Young Catholics want to be POD, not watered down letme pick and choose which rule to follow.

scheese! :nocomment:

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Without getting into a heated debate or exchange with anyone, I prefer a model of the Church where the Pope is in charge and not the vagaries of opinions of extremists and people who are "certain" that they alone represent both the Church's cannon law and Christ's compassion.

The new archbishop of San Francisco is the legitimate bishop of that city. Why? Because His Holiness Benedict chose him. Why? Because the pope is guided by the Spirit. My trust is in God, the pope's decision and the new appointment. This new archbishop's appointment is as valid as the Pope's own appointment.

I've always described myself as a moderate because I don't believe that one can concentrate on extremist ecclesiastical politics or theological interpretation, right or left. I am a moderate because the law must not be excluded but compassion must balance and soften all things.

A pleasant anecdote, possible apocryphal, about good Pope John XXIII was told to me recently. When a particularly conservative cardinal approached him begging for him to curtail the archliberals present at the Second Vatican Council's meetings, Pope John lifted his gown enough to expose his slippered feet and said, "To make a car go, one needs both the accelerator and the brake. The conservatives are the Church's brakes," he said motioning with one foot, "and the liberals are the accelerator," demonstrating with his other foot. At that, His Holiness pointed upwards and smiled widely, "but never forget Who is doing the steering!"

We are all in it together. It mocks Christ's Body for half of the Faithful to point at the other half and say, "You're wrong and here's the text that proves that I'm right!!!" As we stand before God's Throne on the day of our judgment, will our self-righteous lack of compassion comfort us as we stare into God's eyes? Does any Christian honestly believe that we will have the opportunity for snappy comebacks to God's questions, "Well! Lord! I tried to tell them!" or "I think you'll note Yahweh that I never even pretend to love those to defiled your Church!"

…and for this reason, I'm a moderate. I have to serve as a bridge between the two sides. I meet liberals who they tell me that I'm an extremist conservative. If I meet conservatives, they've labeled me as an extremis liberal. It's gone on so long that I consider it humorous.

We should ask ourselves why an extremist opinion, left or right, instead should be acceptable. There is Christ's Law and Christ's Compassion. The 10 Commandments would be sterile, cold and harsh without the Beatitudes. If we didn't need Christ's Love, then we could have survived perfectly fine just with Mosaic Law. But God had other plans instead. :saint:

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Rocco described him as "liberal".

That tells us more about Rocco than it does about the Archbishop of San Francisco.

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[quote]This style and this spirit will be remembered as the essential truth about the Council, not the controversies between "liberals" and "conservatives"-controversies seen in political, not religious, terms-to which some people wanted to reduce the whole Council. In this spirit the Second Vatican Council will continue to be a challenge for all Churches and a duty for each person for a long time to come.

--Pope John Paul II, "Crossing the Threshold of Hope"[/quote]

This political terminology has no relevance to the Catholic Church.

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[quote]Here is where misunderstandings and conflicts can arise. In the many moral dilemmas that face them today, Catholics look to their Church, to their faith, to be a compass, not a weathervane. The Church must point toward the true North of God's loving will, and not merely track where the winds, or the polls, are blowing. This is not a new issue. About seventy years ago, the poet T. S. Eliot indicated why many people in our modern world aren't particularly fond of the Church: "She is hard where they would be easy, and easy where they would be hard." "Hard where they would be easy:" think of abortion and euthanasia; "Easy where they would be hard:" think of capital punishment and immigration law.

--From the Archbishop's installation homily[/quote]

Sounds like a good Bishop to me.

When journalists reduce Catholicism to political terms, it introduces a disorder in language, and it blurs the true nature of Catholic theology and ecclesiology.

Edited by Era Might
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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote]Archbishop George Niederauer[/quote]

I've read that name somewhere else in the last 24 hours...but where?

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 17 2006, 08:16 PM']I've read that name somewhere else in the last 24 hours...but where?
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[url="http://www.timothygoebel.net/easter.shtml"]Found it![/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=47869"]That link was in this (link) thread.[/url]

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Boston Brawler:

I misread your last remark. I had responded that I agreed with you. I do but you are correct to describe the problem between conservatives and liberals in the Church as a matter of media perception. I find that extremists in the Church, both left and right, but more likely right, are very quick to self-label. The media picks up on this. It's not a matter of the Church Faithful mirroring what they see in the media. :saint:

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[quote name='Kismet' date='Feb 18 2006, 08:49 AM']Boston Brawler:

I misread your last remark. I had responded that I agreed with you. I do but you are correct to describe the problem between conservatives and liberals in the Church as a matter of media perception. I find that extremists in the Church, both left and right, but more likely right, are very quick to self-label. The media picks up on this. It's not a matter of the Church Faithful mirroring what they see in the media.  :saint:
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The media would do it whether Catholics did or not, because the media sees EVERYTHING in political terms. In this case, of course, the journalist is Catholic himself.

The problem is not with labeling, but with these particular labels. They are political, and do not correspond to Catholic ecclesiology. A religious delineation is made along orthodox and heterodox lines.

A lot of times I don't blame Catholics for using these misleading labels, because they are so prevalent in public discourse. It can be a useful way to get people to understand. For example, there was a recent flap over John Allen describing the Pope as a "compassionate conservative". I wouldn't have used the phrase myself, for a variety of reasons, but I understood that he was just trying to break it down for his American readers, who see everything as right/left. Ideally, a phrase like "compassionately orthodox" would be better suited to a Pope.

Edited by Era Might
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Yes...but certainly you will admit that conservative Catholics and liberal Catholics will use those labels to self-identify. Others will use them to bludgeon and condemn their opponents. Even a cursory analysis of the postings on this site will convince you of that. One person made a posting that, in essence, suggested that global warming was a Democratic (read: "evil") conspiratorial plot. Another uncharitable poster boasted about how homophobic he was. The media has no effect on Faith nor does it have an effect on those who have already self-identified as conservative or liberal. A case in point, DeoOptimoMaximo lamented in his post earlier in this thread that "Catholics really want to be conservative" (or words to that effect.) My original point is that Catholics should be neither. We should be moderates. The only test of our Catholicism is our orthodoxy (and this should not be confused with conservatism.) The only test of our Christianity is our compassion (and this should not be confused with liberalism.) :saint:

Edited by Kismet
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[quote name='Kismet' date='Feb 18 2006, 09:09 AM']A case in point, DeoOptimoMaximo lamented in his post earlier in this thread that "Catholics really want to be conservative" (or words to that effect.) My original point is that Catholics should be neither. We should be moderates.[right][snapback]891067[/snapback][/right]
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Well, I don't take issue with Deo's use of the word, even though I wouldn't employ it myself. Generally, when a Catholic says he is "conservative", he just means he wants to be faithful to the Church and "conserve" what she has handed on to him.

Like I said, it's not precise language, but it's prevalent in popular discourse. I can excuse it for the most part, depending on the context.

I wouldn't say I'm "moderate". I'm Catholic, with all that entails. If people want to box that in as "liberal" or "conservative" or "moderate", so be it. I don't.

And while I think political advocacy can be taken too far, I can't blame Catholics for being political. It is their role as laymen to engage and enter into the political sphere. Personally, I am just not a political person by nature, and so I am able to highlight a certain autonomy between religion and politics. But, when someone sees a Democratic conspiracy, what can I say? If I disagree, I'll tell them.

What people object to for the most part here on the phorum is belligerence to the Church. The liberal scene in America is largely hostile to Catholicism and religion in general, so Catholics tend toward those more favorable (read: political conservatives and Republicans). While this is not a perfect arrangement, I don't see it as the sinister political agenda that you seem to. I think Catholics just want to defend the Church, and ally themselves with those who to one degree or another support their effort. (There are exceptions; some Catholics can be shills for a political agenda, of course. I'm thinking more of your average in-the-pew Catholic, rather than your hardcore political activists.)

Can they go overboard sometimes? Of course. We all can. Can they sometimes not express themselves with the most prudence? Of course, we all can. But they are still, beneath it all, trying to stand up and be faithful to the Church. Hopefully, they will listen when other Catholics give constructive criticism of one sort or another.

Edited by Era Might
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[quote name='DeoOptimoMaximo' date='Feb 17 2006, 04:27 PM']why oh why does his liberal aged generation, just not get it!! ????

Young Catholics want to be POD, not watered down letme pick and choose which rule to follow.

scheese! :nocomment:
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Jolly right! :rain:

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I think you're misunderstanding me; it seems that we're speaking past each other. I never mentioned Catholics involved with politics per se. I was referring to conservative Catholics who use our religion (ie, their warped interpretation of our religion) to justify voting for the wrong party. I understand your point that Catholics should be involved in the political system but not the point that they should blind themselves to the total picture so that only a single political issue is advanced. And, in the pursuit of this, cast aspersions of anti-intellectual and pseudo-intellectual conspiracies onto their opponents.

I accept that you refer to yourself as neither conservative nor liberal but this is not the truth of the majority of American and European Catholics and certainly not true of the majority of the people who post on this forum (as evidenced by their postings.)

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']Well, I don't take issue with Deo's use of the word, even though I wouldn't employ it myself. Generally, when a Catholic says he is "conservative", he just means he wants to be faithful to the Church and "conserve" what she has handed on to him.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. I find that when conservative Catholic so identify, they wish to assert their preferences over those of others (ie, liberals or those who "aren't quite conservative enough.") If I wanted to paint liberals in such a headily perfumed light as you did the conservatives, I would then say that liberals wish to share "liberally" in Christi's compassion and love for all especially His lowliest children, the poor. As you see, words and self-promoting sentiments are very malleable.

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']I wouldn't say I'm "moderate". I'm Catholic, with all that entails. If people want to box that in as "liberal" or "conservative" or "moderate", so be it. I don't.
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It's not as easy as you're suggesting. Just because you won't publicly refer to yourself as conservative, moderate or liberal (political or theological) here in this forum doesn't mean that you are not. I find many conservatives hide behind words to avoid using the word "conservative." I've met many who use the word "orthodox" to self-identify (without understanding the full implication of that word.) I find that liberals don't have the same compunctions. If they are liberal, they won't hide their identify including the author of the article I initially posted.

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']But, when someone sees a Democratic conspiracy, what can I say? If I disagree, I'll tell them. [right][snapback]891078[/snapback][/right]
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Crickey! Do you believe there are Conservative/Republican conspiracies also?

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']What people object to for the most part here on the phorum is belligerence to the Church. The liberal scene in America is largely hostile to Catholicism and religion in general, so Catholics tend toward those more favorable (read: political conservatives and Republicans).
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First, liberal Catholics are not "belligerent" to the Church. They simply see different needs for the Church to address. Conservatives will generally act as if nothing is wrong with the Church (except the presence of liberals…) they constantly lament about the nonexistent "halcyon days" of their childhood.

Even your last statement identifies you as a conservative. You equate liberality with "anti-Catholicism" and by extension of your line of logic, as you are a "Catholic" you are therefore conservative. I've always been referring to liberals IN the Church….I'm not referring to the maniacs. And by the way, only 50% of Catholics voted Republican in the last generally US election. To get at the (non religious) truth, one does not simply express one's "feelings" at the expense of truth. One has to rely only on logic and data. And, I'll point out, this is only a recent development in US political history as Catholics have always traditionally been Democratic as the Democratic Party was the only one committed to social reform and helping the poor and laboring classes.

Had I realized this you were referring to non-Catholic "liberals" in this discussion, I would have added the non-Catholic conservatives to the fray. How about the Ku Klux Klan? Idaho Isolationists? Protestant Millennialists? Snake-handlers? Abortion Clinic Bombers? Gay-bashers? These are all ultra-conservative groups but I wouldn't be so stupid as to suggest that you had anything in common with them. I wish you would extend the same logical and charitable courtesy to the other end of the political and (Catholic) theological spectrum.

You're confusing the truly unGodly and those Catholics who simply see the Church's structures as being unresponsive to everyone in society (as did Sts Francis of Assisi, Don Bosco, Catherine of Siena and Dominic.) I will admit that the people and groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union have not shown us any kind of support in recent times but it is a horrible miscarriage of logic, intelligence, charity and reality to suggest that THOSE people are even in the same standing as liberal Catholics.

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']I don't see it as the sinister political agenda that you seem to.
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…and yet you believe in liberal conspiracies?

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']Can they go overboard sometimes? Of course. We all can. Can they sometimes not express themselves with the most prudence? Of course, we all can. But they are still, beneath it all, trying to stand up and be faithful to the Church. Hopefully, they will listen when other Catholics give constructive criticism of one sort or another.
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That's completely untrue. Thomas Merton reminded us that some of the worst demons are among our hierarchy and in our monasteries. It's easy for those untrained in history to "forget" Cardinal Richelieu, Pope Alexander VI or the "conservative Catholics" who reported Sts Teresa d'Avila and John of the Cross to the Inquisition. The later were particularly proud of themselves to "stand up and be faithful to the Church" as you wrote.

Just because a Catholic parrots the party line doesn't mean they have had their hearts of stone replaced with ones of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19) Let's not accuse anyone of either sanctity or sanity until we've had a chance to explore their motives. A person can choose to "conserve" (your words) out of fear or loathing not out of generosity of heart, humility or gentility. One can give to the poor hoping for a tax write-off and not as an expression of love and concern. I distrust all extremists in the Church, right or left, who say, "Look at me! Aren't I marvelous!? I'm doing exactly what those who agree with me think I ought to do!"

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:52 AM']What people object to for the most part here on the forum is belligerence to the Church. The liberal scene for the most part in America is hostile to the Church,
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That is a horrible, unChristian overstatement and hubristic oversimplification. I find many liberal Catholics to be somewhat misguided but no less filled with compassion for others. Dorothy Day was liberal AND orthodox. One doesn't have to be conservative to be orthodox. And when it comes down to the final assessment, orthodoxy is all that will count; are we among the Faithful in communion in Spirit with our brothers and sisters or not. Don't dismiss a portion of the church simply because you disagree with them. Err in loving our enemies rather than risk erring in judging them.

Edited by Kismet
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