Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
KnightofChrist

Was Hitler Right?

Recommended Posts

KnightofChrist    2,280
KnightofChrist
[size=5][b]Was Hitler Right? (Or: Why Atheists Have No Rights); Part 1[/b][/size]
by: John Martignoni

[size=4]I want to start off by asking the question: Why do we, as human beings, have value? Now, this newsletter is sent to a group of folks that is predominantly Catholic Christian. And the rest of the group is made up of non-Catholic Christians (as far as I am aware). So, in a group like this, many of you may already know the answer to that question. But, how does the "world" answer the question of, "Why do we as human beings, have value?" And what is the prevailing answer to that question here in the United States?

Why do we, as human beings, have value? Or, do we have value? All of you have heard about the mass extermination of the Jews that the Nazis carried out in the 30's and 40's that we now refer to as the Holocaust. Would you believe me, then, if I said that not a single human being died in the concentration camps? Not one single human being died in the concentration camps!

How can I say that? I can say that because by German law that existed at the time, Jews were legally considered "not fully human." They were classified as a "sub-human" species. Legally speaking, they were "non-persons." One group of people passed laws that said another group of people were not really human beings. So, I say again, no human beings died in the concentration camps. Am I right or am I wrong?

I can just see some of you shaking your heads to tell me that I'm wrong. So, okay, let's say they were human beings. So what? Why should we care? What value are they to us? Again, the question I am trying to get at here is, how is it that our lives have value? How do we determine whether or not any given human life has value?

Do we have value only if we can be productive, if we have a job, or if we serve some useful purpose? Do we have value only if someone else thinks we have value? Do we have value only if we have an IQ of 100 or higher? Do we have value only if someone else loves us? Do we have value only if our "quality of life" meets some arbitrary standard set by others?

Well, I maintain, and I think most of you will agree with me, that we have value simply because we are alive...that human life has inherent value. In other words, simply because it is human life, it has value. But, what is my basis for saying that? It is this: we have value as human beings because God gives us value...He gives us value by His love for us.

We don't have value because we are productive. We don't have value because we are useful. We don't have value because someone else thinks we have value. We don't have value because we have an IQ of 100 or higher. We don't have value because another human being loves us. We don¹t have value because we have some arbitrary level of "quality of life." We have value, because God loves us. Any other line of reasoning leaves an opening for someone, somewhere, at some point in time, to declare somebody else as having no value...which is exactly what happened to the Jews in Europe 70 years ago.

This is why people who do not believe in God cannot offer any objective reason for saying that they themselves have value as human beings. Without God, everything becomes subjective...merely one person's opinion versus another person's opinion...and the strongest person's opinon prevails. Without God, might, in essence, makes right. I've talked to atheists before and I've asked them if what Hitler did to the Jews was wrong. And they answered that of course it was! Then I asked them, why? Why was it wrong for Hitler to kill six million Jews? Essentially, all they could answer me with was, "Well, it just was."

All they had to back their viewpoint was their own subjective opinion. They could not give me one objective reason, for why the Holocaust was wrong. And I have asked that question of some folks who have described themselves as "liberals." What answer did I get? None. Even though I've asked the question several times, I have never had a self-described "liberal" even attempt to provide me with an answer. I believe they recognize that if they give me an answer to my question, it can and will be used against them to show that they are moral hypocrites in their support of abortion and stem cell research and euthanasia and so on.

Without God, you can't make the case that the Holocaust was wrong. In fact, without God, you can't make the case that any killing is wrong. Without God, you can't make the case that the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were wrong. After all, without God, we are just animals, and no one says that one animal killing another animal is morally wrong.

Hitler was wrong if, and only if, God exists. If God does not exist, then might makes right and Hitler was the mightiest in Germany at the time, so he had every right to do what he did. This causes problems for any self-proclaimed atheists (and those who side with them) who wish to remove God from everything.

Hitler being wrong only if God exists leads us directly to the reason for "Why Atheists Have No Rights." If there is no God, then Hitler wasn't wrong not only because the Jews' lives had no inherent value, but because the Jews had no rights - no right to life, no right to liberty, no right to property, no right to freedom from persecution, no right to anything. In fact, if there is no God, then no one has any rights. Ask an atheist if they have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When they say yes - and they will say yes - ask them how this is so. Point them to the Declaration of Independence, which says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

They only have rights, under our system of law, because our system of law is built around the belief that the Creator has endowed them with these rights. And when were they endowed with these rights? At the moment of their creation. Which is when? When they were born? Don't think so. When they first came into existence...when mommy's egg cell met daddy's sperm cell. I'll get into that more in the next newsletter. But, suffice it to say, that atheists have a problem when it comes to unalienable rights because of the fact that they don't believe in the God Who has supposedly given them their unalienable rights. Without a God Who endows us with rights, any attempt to say we inherently have rights as human beings is merely based on one's subjective opinion.

So, I advocate that those who wish to take God out of our school's, out of our legal system, out of the public square, should be given their wish. After all, if choice is one of their gods, and it is, then let's give them their choice. When it comes to atheists, every one needs to act as if God doesn't exist. As a result, they should have no rights under our system of law, after all, there is no Creator to endow them with those rights. So, I say we should throw them all in jail (without a trial, of course); or perhaps make them work for the public good at minimum wage for their entire lives; or maybe make them work as pooper scoopers in the public parks where folks walk their dogs; or some such thing.

And, furthermore, I say they should have no access to legal counsel nor to our court system nor to any other means of legal redress. After all, the legal system is founded on the belief in a Creator who endows us with our unalienable rights. They don't believe in that Creator, so why should they be upset to not have access to a legal system founded on such a belief?

One last thing, if you ever want to drive home the point of all of this with someone who claims to be an atheist, after asking them if Hitler was right and going through all of what we talked about above regarding the Declaration, ask them to give you a reason for why it would be wrong for you to kill them. Just look them straight in the eye and say, "Can you give me an objective moral reason for why it would be wrong for me to shoot you where you stand?" You might startle them. But, no matter what they say, simply reply, "Well, that's just your opinion. I don't believe that. Give me an objective moral reason, not simply your opinion." Again, without the existence of God, all they can give you is their opinion. Tell them you believe in Darwin's survival of the fittest and that you don't believe they are very fit and therefore you place no value on their lives whatsoever. "So, why would it be wrong to kill you?" There is no objective moral reason they can give you, unless they admit to the existence of God.

In Conclusion As always, I would appreciate you letting others know about this newsletter and about the Bible Christian Society, in general. The website is: www.biblechristiansociety.com <http://www.biblechristiansociety.com> . And, as always, your feedback is welcomed and will all be read. How to be added to, or removed from, the list If this newsletter was forwarded to you by a friend, and you would like to be added to our distribution list, all you have to do is go to www.biblechristiansociety.com <http://www.biblechristiansociety.com> and click on the "Newsletter" page to sign up. It will take you about 10 seconds. [/size]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didacus    270
Didacus
[quote] One group of people passed laws that said another group of people were not really human beings.[/quote]

Don't you just have to love democracy?

:pinch:

This is the same for abortion. And many in the US use the same lingo as Hitler to advocate the extermination of 95% of the human world population under the pretext that it is for everyone's good; the world is overpopulated.


If you ignore history's lessons, you will repeat them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MissScripture    4,096
MissScripture
[quote name='Didacus' post='1029815' date='Jul 24 2006, 06:12 AM']
Don't you just have to love democracy?

:pinch:

This is the same for abortion. And many in the US use the same lingo as Hitler to advocate the extermination of 95% of the human world population under the pretext that it is for everyone's good; the world is overpopulated.
If you ignore history's lessons, you will repeat them.
[/quote]
Ironically, that's how Hitler was able to make it so far in the first place. If I remember properly, he actually commented at one point on how no one remembered the Armenian Holocaust not so many years before the Jewish Holocaust...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest thespoonbender   
Guest thespoonbender
I don't understand your argument, could you please clarify:

1.) We don't want human beings to lack rights
2.) The only way to accept that every human has rights is to accept god
3.) Atheists say that there is no god - thus, they say that not everyone has rights
4.) Therefore, atheists don't have rights

Is this your argument? I don't understand. Are atheists not humans?

If there is a god, then everyone has rights. So atheists have rights.

I don't understand. Please explain.

-Gavin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cathoholic_anonymous    1
cathoholic_anonymous
[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1029798' date='Jul 24 2006, 01:10 PM']False.[/quote]

Agreed. The argument is based on a skewed axiom.

Fundamental Principle: Our worth as human beings is conferred on us by the love that our personal Creator has for us.
Conclusion: People who do not believe in God deny their intrinsic value.

The conclusion only holds good if you happen to believe in God and accept the fundamental principle. There are atheists who do not believe that they have any significance or worth [i]as individuals[/i], but that they have worth as members of the human community. Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.) Edited by Cathoholic Anonymous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hyperdulia again    5
hyperdulia again
Ephesians 2:11-22

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lil Red    10,168
Lil Red
[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1406903' date='Oct 21 2007, 07:21 PM']The title of this thread made me puke inside a little[/quote]for once, we are in total agreement.

and why is the font so big in the op?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
prose    40
prose
So....

I think he started out with good points. But then he said that because someone chooses to deny God's existence that we, who believe in God, should treat them as though there is no God. Wouldn't that essentially be making ourselves atheist? Because we are denying the value of ALL humans?

Good start, bad conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KnightofChrist    2,280
KnightofChrist
[quote name='prose' post='1435697' date='Dec 18 2007, 01:53 PM']So....

I think he started out with good points. But then he said that because someone chooses to deny God's existence that we, who believe in God, should treat them as though there is no God. Wouldn't that essentially be making ourselves atheist? Because we are denying the value of ALL humans?

Good start, bad conclusion.[/quote]

I remember reading a later newsletter where he states he does not make that conclusion. Though I can not remember which newsletter it is in... and I have'nt the time right now to find it, taking a break from working on fixing the roof.

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter"]http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter[/url]

I think it is in one of the newsletters in which he debates the atheist Dr. Steven Novella

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rkwright    38
rkwright
I think the whole conclusion that we should deny atheists rights was sarcasm, or a logical conclusion but obviously not something the author wants us to act out. I think its more to merely point out to other the inherent contradiction in atheism and inherent rights or values.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cathgrl83    0
cathgrl83
I think if I said to someone what makes it morally wrong for me to shoot you right now, I'd be in jail... Isn't that illegal just to say that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jeffpugh    34
jeffpugh
[quote name='rkwright' post='1435806' date='Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM']I think the whole conclusion that we should deny atheists rights was sarcasm, or a logical conclusion but obviously not something the author wants us to act out. I think its more to merely point out to other the inherent contradiction in atheism and inherent rights or values.[/quote]
Is what I say earlier, no? Maybe people missed that post... :detective:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KnightofChrist    2,280
KnightofChrist
[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=20"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #14Was Hitler Right? Responses[/url]

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=21"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #15Was Hitler Right? Part 2 [/url]

And a continuation... brought on by Dr. Steven Novella

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=75"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #67Atheist Dr. Steven Novella [/url]

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=77"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #68Atheist Dr. Steven Novella[/url]


Also John Martignoni, does answer emails, and has a show on EWTN Radio, called "Open Line” a call-in program every Monday at 3PM Eastern.

Hope that helps everyone... going to bed so very tired...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PapaHilarious    0
PapaHilarious
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 06:37 AM']Agreed. The argument is based on a skewed axiom.

Fundamental Principle: Our worth as human beings is conferred on us by the love that our personal Creator has for us.
Conclusion: People who do not believe in God deny their intrinsic value.

The conclusion only holds good if you happen to believe in God and accept the fundamental principle. There are atheists who do not believe that they have any significance or worth [i]as individuals[/i], but that they have worth as members of the human community. Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.)[/quote]

I've heard this John Martinoni talk before, and it's a personal favorite of mine. (And it is tongue-in-cheek for those who didn't follow.)

It is not a skewed axiom if you understand that the principle component of atheism is moral relativism. With a relativist world view, there are no absolutes, so [i]my[/i] right or good is no more valuable than [i]your[/i] right or good. When we engage each other as a society, particularly as a democracy, the balance of our individual values is compared and contrasted in mass and ultimately rests in popular vote. Hence, what resulted in Nazi Germany and the comparison to the denial of human rights to babies.

Do not be deceived if you hear a relativist argue the point against harming others as a violation against the individual. By their own admission, if someone else's "good" is really pure evil by the eyes of all others, there is no way to tell them they are wrong. Because "wrong," after all, is a matter of opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didacus    270
Didacus
[quote name='MissScripture' post='1030188' date='Jul 24 2006, 09:31 PM']Ironically, that's how Hitler was able to make it so far in the first place. If I remember properly, he actually commented at one point on how no one remembered the Armenian Holocaust not so many years before the Jewish Holocaust...[/quote]

In one of his speeches Hitler said something to the effect; "Who now speaks of the Armenians Holocaust?!", as if to say "Who cares if we're right or wrong, do you think anyone will care 50 years from now?".

Gotta admit the guy had a way with words. Too bad he used his talents to evil ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Didacus    270
Didacus
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 09:37 AM'][snip]

Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.)[/quote]




[quote]It is when the lie is closests to the truth that the Christian heart cries out the loudest.[/quote]
[b]G. K. Chesterton[/b]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×