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KnightofChrist

Was Hitler Right?

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jeffpugh
[quote name='rkwright' post='1435806' date='Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM']I think the whole conclusion that we should deny atheists rights was sarcasm, or a logical conclusion but obviously not something the author wants us to act out. I think its more to merely point out to other the inherent contradiction in atheism and inherent rights or values.[/quote]
Is what I say earlier, no? Maybe people missed that post... :detective:

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KnightofChrist
[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=20"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #14Was Hitler Right? Responses[/url]

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=21"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #15Was Hitler Right? Part 2 [/url]

And a continuation... brought on by Dr. Steven Novella

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=75"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #67Atheist Dr. Steven Novella [/url]

[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=77"]Apologetics for the Masses - Issue #68Atheist Dr. Steven Novella[/url]


Also John Martignoni, does answer emails, and has a show on EWTN Radio, called "Open Line” a call-in program every Monday at 3PM Eastern.

Hope that helps everyone... going to bed so very tired...

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PapaHilarious
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 06:37 AM']Agreed. The argument is based on a skewed axiom.

Fundamental Principle: Our worth as human beings is conferred on us by the love that our personal Creator has for us.
Conclusion: People who do not believe in God deny their intrinsic value.

The conclusion only holds good if you happen to believe in God and accept the fundamental principle. There are atheists who do not believe that they have any significance or worth [i]as individuals[/i], but that they have worth as members of the human community. Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.)[/quote]

I've heard this John Martinoni talk before, and it's a personal favorite of mine. (And it is tongue-in-cheek for those who didn't follow.)

It is not a skewed axiom if you understand that the principle component of atheism is moral relativism. With a relativist world view, there are no absolutes, so [i]my[/i] right or good is no more valuable than [i]your[/i] right or good. When we engage each other as a society, particularly as a democracy, the balance of our individual values is compared and contrasted in mass and ultimately rests in popular vote. Hence, what resulted in Nazi Germany and the comparison to the denial of human rights to babies.

Do not be deceived if you hear a relativist argue the point against harming others as a violation against the individual. By their own admission, if someone else's "good" is really pure evil by the eyes of all others, there is no way to tell them they are wrong. Because "wrong," after all, is a matter of opinion.

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Didacus
[quote name='MissScripture' post='1030188' date='Jul 24 2006, 09:31 PM']Ironically, that's how Hitler was able to make it so far in the first place. If I remember properly, he actually commented at one point on how no one remembered the Armenian Holocaust not so many years before the Jewish Holocaust...[/quote]

In one of his speeches Hitler said something to the effect; "Who now speaks of the Armenians Holocaust?!", as if to say "Who cares if we're right or wrong, do you think anyone will care 50 years from now?".

Gotta admit the guy had a way with words. Too bad he used his talents to evil ends.

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Didacus
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 09:37 AM'][snip]

Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.)[/quote]




[quote]It is when the lie is closests to the truth that the Christian heart cries out the loudest.[/quote]
[b]G. K. Chesterton[/b]

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KnightofChrist
Because the argument by John Martignoni of EWTN shows that without God, morality and self worth are relative and nonexistence. And the atheist, has no strong argument to prove otherwise, and most often agrees.


In fact, in all my talks and or debates with atheist they agree with my argument that without God, there is no such thing as love, good and evil or right and wrong. And "truth" would be relative. Which is why Mr. Martignoni argument is title "Why Hitler was Right" because if there be no God, Hitler did nothing "wrong" because wrong or evil would not exist.

Stalin and Hitler both atheist, where the greatest mass murders in our time, they murdered many times more innocents than the church is [i]accused[/i] of doing. They saw no evil in killing millions, because they so no worth in the people they killed, and that is because they rejected God.

Most atheist are not like Hitler or Stalin however they do reject Truth, they will agree love, good and evil, right and wrong do not exist or at least are subjective, and relative.

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RandomProddy
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 02:37 PM']Agreed. The argument is based on a skewed axiom....[/quote]


You said it better than I did I couldn't think of how to argue in a charitable way. The title itself makes me feel a little less queasy about the fact that my country carpet-bombed the people whose government thought this way..

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1406488' date='Oct 21 2007, 09:37 AM']Agreed. The argument is based on a skewed axiom.

Fundamental Principle: Our worth as human beings is conferred on us by the love that our personal Creator has for us.
Conclusion: People who do not believe in God deny their intrinsic value.

The conclusion only holds good if you happen to believe in God and accept the fundamental principle. There are atheists who do not believe that they have any significance or worth [i]as individuals[/i], but that they have worth as members of the human community. Then there are many who would disagree strongly with these positions and argue that everyone has equal worth simply by virtue of being alive and human. (Ironically, they are not far from the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of life when they say that.)[/quote]


This is not the conclusion of the author. The conclusion is if in fact there is no God there is no intrinsic value for anyone. Person could believe with all their heart they or others have intrinsic value but without God's existence this would only be that person(s) subjective opinion.

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RandomProddy
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1447896' date='Jan 20 2008, 12:43 AM']The conclusion is if in fact there is no God there is no intrinsic value for anyone.[/quote]

If there is no absolute then everything is relative. Logically speaking value would still be measurable, it's just the yardstick would be different.

In fact, what if? Say you believe in God and you believe that truth is inherent in the universe. Then there would be no if. So what's the point in the argument? Edited by RandomProddy

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1447900' date='Jan 19 2008, 07:46 PM']If there is no absolute then everything is relative. Logically speaking value would still be measurable, it's just the yardstick would be different.[/quote]


And every person's and group's "yardstick" would be different. One yardstick would measure value for all, but another only one group of people or class. It would be subjective. One person's right would be another's wrong.

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1447900' date='Jan 19 2008, 07:46 PM']In fact, what if? Say you believe in God and you believe that truth is inherent in the universe. Then there would be no if. So what's the point in the argument?[/quote]


I dont quite understand your meaning but this argument is that with God existence there is no if when it comes to value of all, but without His existence there is no value or truth only subjective opinion on the matter.

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Noel's angel
I think what he's trying to say is...what the heck is the point of this argument? Your 'argument' is based on the possibility of God not existing, but thats irrelevant to our lives. God does exist, so the whole debate is pointless. Edited by Noel's angel

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KnightofChrist
The argument is not base on the possibility of God's non-existence. Such a thing is not ever possible. I do not have I ever argued that it was possible for God not to exist. The argument is base on what would be IF God did not exist.

There are many who do believe it is a fact that God does not exist, this argument provides the would-be reality of life if that where true. We know that the atheists belief is flase but they do not so the argument is not irrelevant or pointless. Edited by KnightofChrist

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