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#1 Revprodeji

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 02:14 PM

I am in a psalms and proverbs class..

we need to do a short research project for the class. I was thinking about a pentital look at pslams. but i do not know. As some of you know i go to an academic protestant bible college. I would like to think of a topic with a clear catholic theological work.

any ideas?

#2 Seven77

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:59 PM

I am in a psalms and proverbs class..

we need to do a short research project for the class. I was thinking about a pentital look at pslams. but i do not know. As some of you know i go to an academic protestant bible college. I would like to think of a topic with a clear catholic theological work.

any ideas?


well...Fr. Mitch Pacwa (OT scholar) has mp3s this month on Proverbs. May help---



Proverbs: A Blueprint For Living

Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. hosts this series on wisdom themes in the Book of Proverbs (Recorded 1991)


Program 1 Introduction Program 7 Government & Politics
Program 2 Marriage Problems & Good Communication Program 8 Chastity and Love in Marriage
Program 3 Speech and Silence Program 9 Justice and Government
Program 4 Wisdom of Work Program 10 Business
Program 5 Anger Program 11 Pride and Humility
Program 6 Poverty Program 12 Love

http://www.ewtn.com/podcast/index.asp

#3 shortnun

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 08:02 PM

The use of psalms and proverbs in the Liturgy of the Hours....

may be too narrow. I'll give it a bit more thought and let you know if I come up with anything.

#4 Revprodeji

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 10:23 PM

shortnun..

whats the liturgy of hours? Care to explain please..

seven,

thanks for the links. My protestant class obviously is not presenting the catholic view and I like the topics you provide

#5 Aloysius

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 01:46 AM

the Liturgy of the Hours is the official prayer of the Church. it is saturated in the psalms and goes on a cycle of praying through all of them.

#6 PadrePioOfPietrelcino

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 04:41 AM

You can get some of the Liturgy of the Hours for free here.

http://www.ebreviary.com/

The whole thing is a four volume set costing between $120-$150. There are several times of prayers. There is a Shorter Version of just one book about $30-$35 Called Christian Prayer, and and even shorter thinner version called shorter Christian Prayer $20 I think.

#7 phatcatholic

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:14 PM

we need to do a short research project for the class. I was thinking about a pentital look at pslams.

that's a great idea!! Psa 51 is a particularly penitential psalm. the intro to the Psalms in the NAB will help you see generally how the various psalms can be categorized. you could also talk about how the Psalms follow the pattern of the "todah", or the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. here is a helpful thread from a while back on the todah sacrifice:
http://www.phatmass....showtopic=17464

dr. bergsma showed us in class how the psalms fit in w/ this sacrifice. i'll try to type out my notes so u can get the general idea. he also gave us a handout that discusses the various types of psalms. i'll type out what it says about penitential psalms. finally, in the todah thread u'll notice that a couple people suggest Ratzinger's Feast of Faith for a treatment on the todah. i second that. he also talks about how the todah relates to the psalms. see the chapter on "Form and Content in the Eucharist."

CLASS NOTES

first note that there are 5 bks in the psalms:
bk. 1 -- ch. 1-41 -- David's rise and suffering
bk. 2 -- ch. 42-72 -- David's height and Solomon's reign
bk. 3 -- ch. 73-89 -- Decline and collapse of the kingdom
bk. 4 -- ch. 90-106 -- Exile
bk. 5 -- ch. 107-150 -- Return from exile and restoration of Zion

w/in bk. 5, ch. 120-134 are Songs of Ascent, and ch. 145-150 are Hymns of Praise.

bk. 4 is more calm/reflective/penitential and probably corresponds to their time in exile.

Todah
--in hebrew, means "praise"
--refered to a sacrifice of praise
----was an actual animal sacrifice, done in order to give thanks to God for doing something for you

Todah cycle
1. in a situation of distress
2. cry out to the Lord
3. vow to offer the todah in response to his help
4. act of deliverance
5. pay the vow / sacrifice the animal
6. feast: sacrifice and burn part of the animal, eat the rest
7. praise/thanksgiving: give testimony to what God has done.
--note: the order varies for steps 5-7

the psalms fit into this cycle and may have even been written for it.
--the whole cycle is in Psa. 22 (see below)
--lament psalms fit into steps 1-3 of the cycle
--psalms of praise fit into steps 6-7

four characteristics of the todah
--todah one of many different types of sacrifice (cf. Lev 1-7)
--today is unique from among them, and in the following ways
----1. voluntary (unlike sin or burnt offering)
----2. bread eaten w/ the sacrifice
----3. followed an act of deliverance from distress
----4. a festive occasion, a feast
------all of the bread and meat had to be eaten that day, so everyone was invited: friends, family, neighbors, the poor, anyone who happened to be around.

Psa. 22
--vs. 1-18: lament
--vs. 19-21: cry out
--vs. 22: vow
--vs. 22-23: act of deliverance implicit in the psalm
--vs. 24-25: paying of the vow
--vs. 26: feast
--vs. 27-31: praise and thanksgiving

Eucharist like the todah sacrifice
--means "thanksgiving." similarly, todah means "praise/thanksgiving."
--liturgy follows the todah cycle
--Psalms are backbone of our sacrifice of praise.


HANDOUT

Penitential Psalms

Penitential psalms express sorrow for sin. Basically, the psalmist says, "O God, I'm sorry for my sin. Please forgive me." As with hymns, penitential psalms may reflect the repentance of one person or of the community of worshipers. They confess sorrow for sina nd appeal to God's grace for restoration.

Psalm 38 is an example of a penitential psalm. In this psalm, David described the guilt that overwhelmed him as he dealt with his sin. He suffered greatly and his friends and companions deserted him. His pain never left him. As he struggled, David asked the Lord to stay near him, and called Him his Savior.

Psalm 51 provides perhaps the most famous example of a penitential psalm. The heading provides the historical context: "A psalm of David, when the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Basheba." David committed adultery with Bathsheba; she became pregnant with his child; David arranged the death of Uriah her husband in battle; Nathan the prophet confronted him with his sin; and David poured out his repentant heart to the Lord in the words of Psalm 51.

David began by appealing to God to forgive him. David didn't deserve God's favor, for sin enveloped him. He agreed with the Lord's indictment--he needed clensing from his evil. He needed God to purify his heart. If God would forgive him and restore him, perhaps God could again use David to further his purpose. People today often feel like God can never use them effectively because of thier past, but the words of this psalm give hope. God's grace can overcome the most terrible sin!

#8 Laudate_Dominum

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:16 PM

Ignatius Press publishes (or at least used to) St. John Fisher's book on the penitential psalms!!

I would also highly recommend scooping up St. Robert Bellarmine's commentary on the psalms.

:yahoo:

#9 PadrePioOfPietrelcino

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:43 PM

are they expensive L_D? I'll need to budget

#10 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:22 AM

Im working on the presentation on the todah.

The whole sermon concludes around the concept of the todah (hebrew thanksgiving/praise) extending into the Eucharist (eucharista: greek-thanksgiving)

My question right now would be that my audience is protestant. They will literally turn-off if I mention the word eucharist. I spoke to 2 friends of mine last night about this and they said there is an incredible prejudice towards that term.

How would you deal with this issue? Use the terminalogy anyway regardless of their effect? (*possibly get a bad grade for "axe grinding" or "attempting to convert students"--great to hear those btw)

How can I keep the audience user-friendly and still conclude the truth?

#11 Raphael

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:30 AM

Im working on the presentation on the todah.

The whole sermon concludes around the concept of the todah (hebrew thanksgiving/praise) extending into the Eucharist (eucharista: greek-thanksgiving)

My question right now would be that my audience is protestant. They will literally turn-off if I mention the word eucharist. I spoke to 2 friends of mine last night about this and they said there is an incredible prejudice towards that term.

How would you deal with this issue? Use the terminalogy anyway regardless of their effect? (*possibly get a bad grade for "axe grinding" or "attempting to convert students"--great to hear those btw)

How can I keep the audience user-friendly and still conclude the truth?

That's a tough one. I'd probably refer to it again and again as a thanksgiving sacrifice, don't use the Greek. Lay the foundation first...they don't need to know you're thinking "Eucharist." Let them know you're thinking of Christ's Last Supper, Passion, Death, and Resurrection. Then mention perhaps the early Christian extension of thanksgiving sacrifice, which commemorates the Lord's Passion, Death, and Resurrection (the Road to Emmaus, the teachings of St. Paul, the Didache, which describes the Mass...just use "thanksgiving" in place of "Eucharist"). That way, you can plant it all in their heads in seminal form so that when and if, by the grace of God, they begin to get over their prejudices and look into the Catholic Eucharist, it will click and they will see the deeper meaning you didn't expound.

That's just what I would do, given the situation.

#12 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:33 AM

dude..you are fast.

Ok, so replace eucharist with thanksgiving. Thanks, for some reason i feel like I am cheaping it because "thanksgiving" doesnt carry the same **woopah** as eucharist. but what is **woopah** for me is possibly **grrhissblah** for them.

#13 Raphael

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:40 AM

dude..you are fast.

Ok, so replace eucharist with thanksgiving. Thanks, for some reason i feel like I am cheaping it because "thanksgiving" doesnt carry the same **woopah** as eucharist. but what is **woopah** for me is possibly **grrhissblah** for them.

I like the onomatapoeias. Thanks.

Anyway, yeah...I'm fast because I'm practically wired to this website. :P:

Yeah, talking about the Eucharist is great...but sometimes we need to present things in a form that can be greater appreciated...it doesn't mean telling falsehoods, it just means hiding the harder truth behind the easier truth and letting it sit and grow...like when you hide medication in an ill grandparent's applesauce. :P: It's for their good, but they don't want it...so you still give it to them, but you don't let them realize you're giving it to them...and then it can get in safely and help them from the inside...eventually they'll realize that you must have snuck it in there, but by then they'll be grateful because they'll see how it benefitted them. ;)

It's a tactic we use when someone isn't ready for or mature enough to understand the deeper truths...we just sort of zoom out a bit and give them more basic principles that necessarily lead to the deeper truth.

#14 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:58 AM

I am on this site almost all day also. I try to get everything I can from you guys..

I see your point; ironically I just taught our christology class a similar concept this morning. (**for giggles I will attach the file for the outline.)

Basically saying

Theology must also take into account social presuppositions that determine whether or not the message will gain understanding. Addressing an audience mindful of what they can and will take for granted.

The question that presses against us then is how best to articulate the significance of the cross in the many worlds in which we seek faithfully to serve today.

The challenge before us is how to articulate the message of the cross in ways that are culturally relevant and that remain faithful to the biblical witness.

ok, I give up..How the bloody do you attach a file..I clicked the lil "attachment" thing and nothing happened..

refund dust?

#15 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 12:30 PM

yea, looking over my project I dont want to ditch eucharist...

what if I said something about eucharist, communion? Is it appropriate? Protestants understand communion. CofC puts a big importance on their "rememberance" and unity of the communion.

Is there a way to do this without losing the power, yet remain relatable?

30 seconds and no raphel...**giggles**

#16 phatcatholic

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:30 PM

Im working on the presentation on the todah.

The whole sermon concludes around the concept of the todah (hebrew thanksgiving/praise) extending into the Eucharist (eucharista: greek-thanksgiving)

My question right now would be that my audience is protestant. They will literally turn-off if I mention the word eucharist. I spoke to 2 friends of mine last night about this and they said there is an incredible prejudice towards that term.

How would you deal with this issue? Use the terminalogy anyway regardless of their effect? (*possibly get a bad grade for "axe grinding" or "attempting to convert students"--great to hear those btw)

How can I keep the audience user-friendly and still conclude the truth?

well, all you're doing is quoting scripture. the word "eucharistia" is found in 15 different places in scripture (go here and see the verse count on the right). once they see that the word is scriptural, they should be ok w/ it.

#17 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 02:55 PM

I did it..

woah, old school Old Testament teacher got so flustered and took off his glasses and went to the white board and started ranting about hot todah has nothing to do with the last supper and the physical references are just a dogmatic (*proto term for puting your own doctrine ahead of scripture..ala isgesis) and a bastardization of jewish practices

#18 Raphael

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 06:55 PM

yea, looking over my project I dont want to ditch eucharist...

what if I said something about eucharist, communion? Is it appropriate? Protestants understand communion. CofC puts a big importance on their "rememberance" and unity of the communion.

Is there a way to do this without losing the power, yet remain relatable?

30 seconds and no raphel...**giggles**

I was in class. :P:

#19 phatcatholic

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 08:26 PM

I did it..

woah, old school Old Testament teacher got so flustered and took off his glasses and went to the white board and started ranting about hot todah has nothing to do with the last supper and the physical references are just a dogmatic (*proto term for puting your own doctrine ahead of scripture..ala isgesis) and a bastardization of jewish practices

hey, u should post your presentation, if you don't care. also, did you see my last post in this thread? did u take my advice?

#20 Revprodeji

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:17 PM

i took your post as justification, um..permission? For going with it. I did not rub it in his face or anything, but I did not go out of my way to by-pass it.

it is a powerpoint file. I had problems loading a bloody word file earlier. Help me and I will hook you up. I pretty much took your notes and developed it; nuthin special




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