credo Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 This is my understanding, I don't know if it is true or not... I was told though that there is Dance at the Pope's liturgies so that the Camaras can follow that during Communion instead of watching people go to Communion. This sort of makes sense, because whenever I see Dance during the Pope's Masses it is always during Communion. Maybe someone can spread light on this? Or you can say when you saw this 'Dance', and maybe we can see if this theory holds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekilharas Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Have none of you ever sung or heard "The Lord of the Dance"? From my understanding, liturgical dance is used and/or permitted only in certain cultures as a part of their heritage. It is not something that is done at 'every' mass even for them. Many of you might find parts of some 'charismatic' or even Life Teen masses to be containing 'dance'. It really depends on your definition of the word 'dance.' Thoughts ... for what they are worth, Blessings, Nell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I love to watch people signing (using sign language) to music. But that is not dancing; it's singing! For a complete explanation on liturgical dance. I seem to recall that on an earlier papal visit to the US, some sort of dance took place while the Holy Father prepared for Mass. He remained in his tent or trailer, praying, while women in sheer leotards cavorted around, lunging and sprawling, etc. A tremendous thunderstorm broke out, and the Papal Mass on those grounds was never celebrated. (Anyone else remember this?) Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Ekilharas, I've been to LifeTeen services in a couple of parishes. They don't have Liturgical dance. Liturgical means it's part of the Liturgy, or incorporated within the Mass. LifeTeen Masses is a little more enthusiastic singing, often with hand gestures that symbolically reflect the lyrics. As a rule in the years I've been attending LifeTeen Masses, the lively music is after the Mass Liturgy has been declared 'Ended' by the Priest and the final Blessings given. The LifeTeen response is "The Mass never ends. It must be lived. Let us go forth to love and serve the Lord. Alleluia!!" Some teens may get real enthusiastic then with the clapping and hand motions and approach 'dancing' to some definitions, but it isn't incorporated as part of the Liturgy per se. Like ryanmyers pointed out, the reason to Celebrate is powerful too. LifeTeen heavily emphasises the Real Presence within it's program. The fact that God is with you in Body and Spirit is very powerful with these teens. Sometimes the teens respond with enthusiastic singing and clapping, other times more quietly. Good Friday, I'm not totally convinced that the Bishop doesn't have some say in allowing Liturgical dance. I personally might not be happy with Liturgical dance, but regardless, the Consencration and the Real Presence would over-ride any failures in Liturgical norms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I'm not totally convinced that the Bishop doesn't have some say in allowing Liturgical dance. I personally might not be happy with Liturgical dance, but regardless, the Consencration and the Real Presence would over-ride any failures in Liturgical norms. I'm not sure how I could have been more convincing. I just posted a statement from the Congregation for Divine Worship and a statement by the USCCB stating definitively that liturgical dance is not allowed in the West. So it seems to me that an individual Bishop cannot decide that it is allowed, because the decision of the Congregation for Divine Worship (which is really the decision of the Pope himself, since he approves everything) supercedes an individual Bishop's decision. Now, add on to that the fact that our National Conference of Catholic Bishops stated that it wasn't allowed, and you have a situation where the individual Bishop definitely is not allowed to go against these decisions. I agree that the consecration and Real Presence are more important than liturgical abuses, which is why I said that I wouldn't go to a Mass like that unless it was the last one on earth. In other words, what I was saying was I would rather go to a Mass that adheres to the Church's liturgical regulations than go to a Mass that doesn't, precisely because I believe the consecration and the Real Presence are the most important part of the Mass. Besides the fact that it is explicitly condemned by the Church, liturgical dance is just another way liberals are trying to chip away at the meaning of the Eucharist. Who isn't going to be distracted if there are a bunch of people dancing around the altar? It's because the Eucharist is more important than dancing that I dislike liturgical dance so much. I believe liturgical dance takes away from the meaning of the Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekilharas Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 jasJis: I'm sorry, guess I wasn't very clear with what I meant to say. When I mentioned 'dance' at Life Teen, I did not mean to imply 'liturgical dance', what I witnessed is what I consider 'a dance of the spirit. It is what I see as the Holy Spirit alive and moving in those present who are so very much attuned to the love and energy of the Eucharistic Celebration. Blessings, Nell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 (edited) Once again we come to an important question.. Do you honestly think that people who use liturgical dance in a graceful and tasteful manner at mass once a year are trying to disrespect God or give praise to him? And you do you honestly think that Jesus would care if he saw ppl dancing because of him due to their happiness because he is God! I think ppl need to stop being so condeming and more accepting of other peoples ways of worship. Hey I dont partake in liturgical dance either but I know a lot of devout catholics who are active in dace and love to do this ONCE A YEAR as a part of mass. I was at WYD and i specifically remeber seeing liturgical dance at the papal mass as a part of the liturgy. Secondly they have liturgical dance at NCYC. Good Friday: I have studied the GIRM very well in a class i took at seminary and it indeed says nothing about liturgical dance being wrong. My bishop supports liturgical dance if it is done so tastefully and sparringly...I consider myself Charasmatic and Orthodox but in no way do I see this as something that is "devilish" and I dont think ppl who do it stick their noses up at the church and to be honest I dont think Jesus would have a problem with ppl dancing in his church. servant of servants Vianney Edited July 28, 2003 by vianney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 There is no record of dancing at the wedding at Cana. But there certainly was not dancing at the Last Supper, which was the first Mass. That's neither here nor there. Jesus has a problem with what the Church has a problem with, and since the Church has said (through the Congregation for Divine Worship, whose quote I have posted here) that liturgical dance is not to be done, then Jesus does not want it done. Ask yourself: What is more important to Jesus, obedience to the Church or dancing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Good Friday, Get a free tape from Catholicity.com from Father Larry Richards called the "Mass Explained". The Mass is both a 'Celebration and a Sacrifice'. If the emotional tone at the Last Supper is to be the model for all Mass Liturgies, we would be in constant Lent. The culture of the Catholic Church Liturgies follows the cycle of human life, from birth, to ordinary time, to repentance, to death, to re-bith in eternal life. Even a LifeTeen mass is subdued during Lent. Solemn songs, no Alleluia, no clapping. At other times, I've got 5 words for ya... "The Joy of the Lord!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 And like I said the GIRM does not say anything about liturgical dance being wrong. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girm.html I dont think you are stating the question fairly because i think that liturgical dance is not wrong in accordance with the GIRM, and what I have seen with my bishop and at WYD in FRONT OF THE POPE HIMSELF. Im not saying that liturgical dance should be at every mass. But I am saying on special occasions with the Bishops ok there should be nothing wrong with it as long as it is done sparringly and gracefully. Like I said your question about being obedient to the church or dancing is not a fair one. And if some ppl happen to connect with God on a intimate level by dancing as a form of their worship who are we to condem them and i still stand by my statement that I picture Jesus smiling down at us as we dance and praisehis name because he is lord. I dont see him frowning and being upset with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Gopod Friday posted the norms for the US. Liturgical dancing is wrong in the continental US simply because it is not part of our culture and the Church says no. When the Pope visits another country the host Church sets up the program, not the Vatican. If the Pope visits a country where dance is permitted ( Polynesia, orAfrica for example) you will see liturgical dance as part of their sacred tradition. If you have seen liturgical dance in the US outside the parameters set down by the Church, you are seeing disobedience and abuse. THere is nothing wrong with a party and dancing after Mass is over. THe Lords day is a day of celebration not gloom, it is Easter not Good Friday. Vianney it has nothing to do with taste and everything to do with obedience. If your Bishop and seminary are not capable of obeying simple Church rules I suggest we put them on the prayer list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 AMEN JAS-JIS Praise Jesus!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 If the emotional tone at the Last Supper is to be the model for all Mass Liturgies, we would be in constant Lent. The culture of the Catholic Church Liturgies follows the cycle of human life, from birth, to ordinary time, to repentance, to death, to re-bith in eternal life. Even a LifeTeen mass is subdued during Lent. Solemn songs, no Alleluia, no clapping. At other times, I've got 5 words for ya... "The Joy of the Lord!" Not so, Jas. The Last Supper was a seder, a time of remembering , singing and stories. It is a gathering or friends and family. It was certainly not Lent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 WYD was in Canada when I went, I would consider that in the west. And I believe I am being obedient according to the GIRM. Thank you for the prayers though I will also pray for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 And like I said the GIRM does not say anything about liturgical dance being wrong. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girm.html I dont think you are stating the question fairly because i think that liturgical dance is not wrong in accordance with the GIRM, and what I have seen with my bishop and at WYD in FRONT OF THE POPE HIMSELF. Im not saying that liturgical dance should be at every mass. But I am saying on special occasions with the Bishops ok there should be nothing wrong with it as long as it is done sparringly and gracefully. Like I said your question about being obedient to the church or dancing is not a fair one. And if some ppl happen to connect with God on a intimate level by dancing as a form of their worship who are we to condem them and i still stand by my statement that I picture Jesus smiling down at us as we dance and praisehis name because he is lord. I dont see him frowning and being upset with us. THe GIRM is not the only litugrical document in force here. If the Bishops Conference says NO dancing then there is NO dancing. If your Bishop chooses to break the rules laid down by his own conference in front of his superior thats on him. Please don't do the lets just love everybody - do your own thing - so its ok to treat rules as suggestions - argument. I am a child of the 60's so I know where that leads - the current lifestyle of 2003. St Augustine from back in the day said obedience is the highest form of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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