jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 DJ, Then by the same logic, I reject your actions to undermine what I believe is a Catholic right and responsibility to have a government that protects and establishes societal order. I believe also that underage drinking leads to societal ills and that your actoins foster those societal ills. In other words, you are damaging what I believe is a good Catholic society and you should be neutralized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 (edited) shout like a child???? it was simply a response to what you said to me go ahead....take a look at your font and size when you said this TOV, What's wrong with underage drinking? It's breaking the Law! When is it morally okay to break the Law? Can you answer that? Little bit of the pot calling the kettle black???????? Please dont mock my emphasis by calling me child like... Edited July 29, 2003 by TempleofVesarius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Winchester, I don't know what you mean about Government having authority 'by fiat'. Governments are a tool used by God, as an element of the nature of humans. In this sense, governments derive their authority from God by the fact of the qualities God gave humanity. Disobedience directed towards our government is not just a small thing. Alos this is absurd, our government rejects God and has made war on Him for years, It gains whatever athority it might have from the fact that it does serve certian divine mandates, such as protection of the Innocentit has no authority out side of those realms in order to have such authority it would have to be a Catholic State. I.E. The King of Spain might have such authority, as might the Government of Ireland, but few if any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 You are really saying that our Government is a Catholic Government then you are insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 DJ, Either the government is legitimate, or you should be working to overthrow it all. What is absurd is your fantasy that it would have to be a Catholic State to be legititmate. Yes, it would be preferable that a government was a Catholic State, but it is not a fundamental requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 overthrow it all???? WHY NOT JUST FIX WHAT IS WRONG????? (not yelled, emphasized) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Please name me a single societal ill which is directly caused by UNDERAGE drinking as opposed to any other drinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I said it would have to be a Catholic State to have the Authority of which you speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 This requirement is not my Fantasy but a Condition strongly held in the Catholic Tradition, read some Councils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Quote from the Catechism where I'm wrong. I'll quote from the Catechism and show you where you are wrong. 2254 Public authority is obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person and the conditions for the exercise of his freedom. In order for the drinking thing to be determined as a infringement of a fundamental human righr, you would have to establish that the drinking alcohol is a fundamental human right of an 18 year old. You would also have to argue that it is the same right as a 16 year old as well. The establishment of a certain age is the perogative of the Government in order to protect society. 2255 It is the duty of citizens to work with civil authority for building up society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. It is the duty of the Government to protect society. You would have to argue against the known scientific facts of increased pregnancy rate, drinking problems, auto accidents, and increased participation in dangerous behavior by persons who are generally less mature than 21 year olds. 2256 Citizens are obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order. "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). You must now be able to argue that an 18 year old is disobeying God by drinking. You must also show how this is not dishonoring your mother and father (which also means persons in authority). Your turn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I will argue that it is NOT the government's right to decide the issue. It isnt a fundamental human right to drink, but it is a fundamental human right to oppose ANY law that interferes with your everyday rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I will argue that it is NOT the government's right to decide the issue. It isnt a fundamental human right to drink, but it is a fundamental human right to oppose ANY law that interferes with your everyday rights. On what basis is it not the government's right? I've provided Catechism quotes explaining that governments serve humanity because we are created as social beings. Governments are not perfect because of human nature, but governments are good because of some of the aspects of humanity that God gave us. It is not a fundamental right for everyone to drink. Are you a diminshed person, or have less value in society or are worse off if you are prevented from drinking for 10 years, 16 years, 21 years? What about my right for my person and family to be protected from drunk kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 (edited) ok....18 year olds are mature enough to VOTE FOR PRESIDENT, but not to decide on their own if they should have that beer or not? No I dont think its the governments right to tell someone who is by all other standards a legal adult that they cant choose on their own to have a drink. And I am not arguing the right for "kids" to get "drunk"....Im talking about people who are considered adults being able to have a beer or two if they so choose. Edited July 29, 2003 by TempleofVesarius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp15 Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hey, I work very hard for my money but the gonernment tells me that I have to pay taxes. That infringes upon my individual right to keep what I earn, so does that count? Keeping all of what I earned wouldn't hurt anyone would it? What if everyone stoped paying taxes. That wouldn't hurt anyone would it? Oh, and for the record, I don't think 18 year olds should be allowed to vote or serve in the military either. Most are just too imature to make logical choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullnaChinaShop Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I personally think that it is the very mindset of restricting alcohol to begin with that brings about a lot of the problems with its abuse. Look at the societies in the world where there is no drinking age and drinking is an everyday occurrence. They don't have near the abuse levels we have here. If kids were taught that alcohol is not a big deal then would as many of them be going out and getting drunk? Most likely, not as many would. Telling young people they can’t do something that is ok for adults is usually like waving the red flag in front of the bull. Drinking is seen as a type of rebellion but if it is legal then what would they have to rebel against. I think parents should set good examples for their kids with regards to alcohol as with most everything else in life. It is fine and good in moderation. If kids are taught by example from a young age how to responsibly use alcohol then they will be less likely to abuse it later. I personally don’t think there should be any drinking age but I don’t think this country with its current mindset would ever make it through the transition. Therefore the practical side of me says that when one is considered an adult they should be given the full rights and responsibilities that come with that and if at the age one is considered an adult it is not safe to give them all the rights and responsibilities then the age of adulthood needs to be rethought. The government contradicts itself otherwise. I’m asking for just and consistent laws to follow and I don’t believe that having the drinking age at 21 to be consistent or just considering that at 18 one can vote and can be drafted into the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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