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Young Priests Push For Pre-vat2 Customs


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Laudate_Dominum

[quote name='mortify' post='1297950' date='Jun 18 2007, 04:54 PM'][b]A Return to the Latin Mass[/b]
[b]Clashes with congregants may erupt as a growing number of young priests push for a revival of pre-Vatican II customs[/b]
By Eric Ferkenhoff
Posted 6/17/07
[url="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070617/25church.htm"]http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles...17/25church.htm[/url][/quote]
:yahoo:

Amen.

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I only attend the Tridentine rite about once a year... of course there are families there at the indult who regularly drive miles and miles out of their way. Just down the street from the indult church is a Byzantine rite church. There are people who go there who also drive miles and miles out of their way.

Honestly I don't understand why anyone could be threatened by people who attend liturgies different from the normative Latin one. There is such a rich tradition of multiple rites in the Church. And, I mean, if the Church allows it, who are we to make our own judgments about who should attend each one? Personally I think the Eastern rites are even more beautiful than the Tridentine ones :idontknow:

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[quote name='Maggie' post='1298335' date='Jun 19 2007, 07:33 AM']I only attend the Tridentine rite about once a year... of course there are families there at the indult who regularly drive miles and miles out of their way. Just down the street from the indult church is a Byzantine rite church. There are people who go there who also drive miles and miles out of their way.

Honestly I don't understand why anyone could be threatened by people who attend liturgies different from the normative Latin one. There is such a rich tradition of multiple rites in the Church. And, I mean, if the Church allows it, who are we to make our own judgments about who should attend each one? Personally I think the Eastern rites are even more beautiful than the Tridentine ones :idontknow:[/quote]
It's not about "feeling threatened."

It's about recognizing the harm that can result from these decisions, both in individual relationships and to the church as a whole. I'm making no judgment about the sinfulness or non-sinfulness of these behaviors.

We don't make decisions about our lives in a vacuum. They do have repercussions on the people around us.

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[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298299' date='Jun 19 2007, 04:57 AM']Every time you choose something, you are also at the same time not choosing other things. For example, when I chose to become Catholic, I also chose not to continue being a member at the Presbyterian church I had been attending. I said by my choice, "Catholicism is better" and "I no longer wish to actively engage in worship and pursue communal relationships here." Now, in my case, my decision to move was not that I preferred Catholic worship style, or that there were better donuts, but that I believed Jesus is real in the Eucharist, and knew I would not find that in the Protestant church I was attending or in any Protestant church I could attend.

When a family leaves a parish they've been attending and where they've built relationships for a TLM parish, they have no such noble arguments to back them up. It most certainly is a preference, and what they're saying to the community they leave is, "I value this music and this style of liturgy more than I value continuing in relationship with you all and contributing to the growth and holiness of this parish." In essence, they are washing their feet of that community.

I feel no call to respect a decision based on such reasons. Giving preference weight over the good of the parish you would otherwise be attending is, in my mind, an inherently selfish act. You're saying, "My pleasure is more important to me than you are." That kind of attitude flies in the face of what it means to be Catholic, of the whole idea of sacrificing individual desires for the good of the whole. Paul urges us in Philippians 2 to, in humility, consider others better than ourselves. How is driving an hour to satisfy a preference fulfilling this exhortation?

And if a person is unable to get a sense of beauty and the sacred in any Mass then the place to start is with his or her own heart, not the outward trappings of the liturgical setting. As long as Jesus is there EVERY Mass has a sense of the sacred and beauty.[/quote]

If people were coming to the Tridentine Mass simply because they enjoyed the music, than I would agree, that is not a good reason to leave an orthodox parish.

However, I think that you make a false assumption if you believe that people come to the TLM simply because they enjoy the music.

What about those people who genuinely believe that it is the most fitting way to worship God? Is that selfish? I don't think so.

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[quote name='SJP' post='1298346' date='Jun 19 2007, 08:43 AM']If people were coming to the Tridentine Mass simply because they enjoyed the music, than I would agree, that is not a good reason to leave an orthodox parish.

However, I think that you make a false assumption if you believe that people come to the TLM simply because they enjoy the music.

What about those people who genuinely believe that it is the most fitting way to worship God? Is that selfish? I don't think so.[/quote]
The only reasons I have heard for this line of thinking are that the form is somehow superior to the NO. I've heard only two basic categories for reasons why TLM would be superior to NO: either that it is aesthetically more beautiful (in which case see my argument about music because it applies equally to any aesthetic argument) or that the NO is invalid in some way. If the latter argument is the case, then the person is placing his or her judgment above that of the magisterium, which has approved BOTH as valid. So we're back to personal preference. Which is not a valid reason, imo, to leave a parish.

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[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298353' date='Jun 19 2007, 10:57 AM']The only reasons I have heard for this line of thinking are that the form is somehow superior to the NO. I've heard only two basic categories for reasons why TLM would be superior to NO: either that it is aesthetically more beautiful (in which case see my argument about music because it applies equally to any aesthetic argument) or that the NO is invalid in some way. If the latter argument is the case, then the person is placing his or her judgment above that of the magisterium, which has approved BOTH as valid. So we're back to personal preference. Which is not a valid reason, imo, to leave a parish.[/quote]


If personal preference is not a valid reason to attend the TLM, than why does the Church allow both rites to exist? For that matter, why does the Church allow multiple rites to exist at all?

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[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298353' date='Jun 19 2007, 10:57 AM']The only reasons I have heard for this line of thinking are that the form is somehow superior to the NO. I've heard only two basic categories for reasons why TLM would be superior to NO: either that it is aesthetically more beautiful (in which case see my argument about music because it applies equally to any aesthetic argument) or that the NO is invalid in some way. If the latter argument is the case, then the person is placing his or her judgment above that of the magisterium, which has approved BOTH as valid. So we're back to personal preference. Which is not a valid reason, imo, to leave a parish.[/quote]


Furthermore, you can't deny the fact that beauty is important in the Liturgy.

As Pope Benedict stated in SC:

Beauty and the liturgy

35. This relationship between creed and worship is evidenced in a particular way by the rich theological and liturgical category of beauty. Like the rest of Christian Revelation, the liturgy is inherently linked to beauty: it is veritatis splendor. The liturgy is a radiant expression of the paschal mystery, in which Christ draws us to himself and calls us to communion. As Saint Bonaventure would say, in Jesus we contemplate beauty and splendour at their source. (106) This is no mere aestheticism, but the concrete way in which the truth of God's love in Christ encounters us, attracts us and delights us, enabling us to emerge from ourselves and drawing us towards our true vocation, which is love. (107) God allows himself to be glimpsed first in creation, in the beauty and harmony of the cosmos (cf. Wis 13:5; Rom 1:19- 20). In the Old Testament we see many signs of the grandeur of God's power as he manifests his glory in his wondrous deeds among the Chosen People (cf. Ex 14; 16:10; 24:12-18; Num 14:20- 23). In the New Testament this epiphany of beauty reaches definitive fulfilment in God's revelation in Jesus Christ: (108) Christ is the full manifestation of the glory of God. In the glorification of the Son, the Father's glory shines forth and is communicated (cf. Jn 1:14; 8:54; 12:28; 17:1). Yet this beauty is not simply a harmony of proportion and form; "the fairest of the sons of men" (Ps 45[44]:3) is also, mysteriously, the one "who had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him" (Is 53:2). Jesus Christ shows us how the truth of love can transform even the dark mystery of death into the radiant light of the resurrection. Here the splendour of God's glory surpasses all worldly beauty. The truest beauty is the love of God, who definitively revealed himself to us in the paschal mystery.

[b]The beauty of the liturgy is part of this mystery; it is a sublime expression of God's glory and, in a certain sense, a glimpse of heaven on earth. The memorial of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice contains something of that beauty which Peter, James and John beheld when the Master, making his way to Jerusalem, was transfigured before their eyes (cf. Mk 9:2). Beauty, then, is not mere decoration, but rather an essential element of the liturgical action, since it is an attribute of God himself and his revelation. These considerations should make us realize the care which is needed, if the liturgical action is to reflect its innate splendour.[/b]

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[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298353' date='Jun 19 2007, 10:57 AM']The only reasons I have heard for this line of thinking are that the form is somehow superior to the NO. I've heard only two basic categories for reasons why TLM would be superior to NO: either that it is aesthetically more beautiful (in which case see my argument about music because it applies equally to any aesthetic argument) or that the NO is invalid in some way. If the latter argument is the case, then the person is placing his or her judgment above that of the magisterium, which has approved BOTH as valid. So we're back to personal preference. Which is not a valid reason, imo, to leave a parish.[/quote]
Third reason: the old mass contains more prayers and the old calender is more intricately and organically connected between the scriptural readings and the feast days than the new calender.

My reasons for assisting at the Tridentine Mass are numbers 1 and 3.

The divisiveness it sometimes causes I see more as a problem not caused by those who go to the Tridentine, but those who do not. It is their lack of understanding of the liturgical reasons of those who do go to indult parishes that really causes divisiveness (though it is often also attitudes of people who go to the indults, those attitudes are usually formed in reaction to that). But a wide and generous application of the indult would help to solve this problem as well... whose fault is it that people leave parishes, the people with rightful aspirations towards the old rite, or the bishops who allow only one indult mass in some obscure basement? (not Pittsburgh, our indult is quite well-placed)

Let's not forget that most parishes have some degree of liturgical abuse. As Redemptionis Sacramentum says, every Catholic has a right to the liturgy performed properly according to the rubrics. If they are not receiving it, they are under no obligation to continue to bring their families to imporperly performed liturgies out of some attempt to help direct that parish to be better. God bless the people who do remain at such parishes and do attempt to help steer them in a better direction, but no one is under an obligation to do so. They have every right to seek out a liturgy without abuse no matter how far that might take them.

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[quote name='SJP' post='1298362' date='Jun 19 2007, 09:08 AM']If personal preference is not a valid reason to attend the TLM, than why does the Church allow both rites to exist? For that matter, why does the Church allow multiple rites to exist at all?[/quote]
Obviously there are diverse means of worshipping God, and the Church in her wisdom has seen fit to preserve several these rites within the church. However, I know there are restrictions about moving between the rites, although I don't have those handy and don't have time at the moment to look them up. Here we are talking about two liturgies within the Latin rite, each valid and each beautiful.

You're going to have to go a ways farther to convince me that personal preference is a valid reason to leave a parish. What I see happening is something akin to magnet churches ... certain parish communities develop reputations for being comfortable for people with certain interests. We get churches that have good young adult programs, so all the young adults go there. We have churches with good schools, so families with kids go there. We have churches that are known to be friendly to homosexual persons, so they go there. We have churches that offer the Latin Mass, so Traditionalists go there. So we end up with a segregation along special interest lines, to a certain extent, which emphasizes the segregation that already exists because of geographic boundaries. While sometimes this segregation has a good effect, other times it provides an atmosphere ripe for disobedience and disunity. Overall, it weakens the church because we fail to learn how to live as a BODY. We have all the fingers in one church, the brains in another church, and the hearts in a third church.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1298370' date='Jun 19 2007, 09:27 AM']Third reason: the old mass contains more prayers and the old calender is more intricately and organically connected between the scriptural readings and the feast days than the new calender.

My reasons for assisting at the Tridentine Mass are numbers 1 and 3.

The divisiveness it sometimes causes I see more as a problem not caused by those who go to the Tridentine, but those who do not. It is their lack of understanding of the liturgical reasons of those who do go to indult parishes that really causes divisiveness (though it is often also attitudes of people who go to the indults, those attitudes are usually formed in reaction to that). But a wide and generous application of the indult would help to solve this problem as well... whose fault is it that people leave parishes, the people with rightful aspirations towards the old rite, or the bishops who allow only one indult mass in some obscure basement? (not Pittsburgh, our indult is quite well-placed)

Let's not forget that most parishes have some degree of liturgical abuse. As Redemptionis Sacramentum says, every Catholic has a right to the liturgy performed properly according to the rubrics. If they are not receiving it, they are under no obligation to continue to bring their families to imporperly performed liturgies out of some attempt to help direct that parish to be better. God bless the people who do remain at such parishes and do attempt to help steer them in a better direction, but no one is under an obligation to do so. They have every right to seek out a liturgy without abuse no matter how far that might take them.[/quote]
I agree that a wider application of the indult could help to solve some of the problems I see.

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[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298390' date='Jun 19 2007, 09:00 AM']You're going to have to go a ways farther to convince me that personal preference is a valid reason to leave a parish. What I see happening is something akin to magnet churches ... certain parish communities develop reputations for being comfortable for people with certain interests. We get churches that have good young adult programs, so all the young adults go there. We have churches with good schools, so families with kids go there. We have churches that are known to be friendly to homosexual persons, so they go there. We have churches that offer the Latin Mass, so Traditionalists go there. So we end up with a segregation along special interest lines, to a certain extent, which emphasizes the segregation that already exists because of geographic boundaries. While sometimes this segregation has a good effect, other times it provides an atmosphere ripe for disobedience and disunity. Overall, it weakens the church because we fail to learn how to live as a BODY. We have all the fingers in one church, the brains in another church, and the hearts in a third church.[/quote]
agreed :clapping:

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Ash Wednesday

Terra Firma rocks.

One of the things I've noticed lately is that -- I know we are a big church and all with a billion members, but good lord, the Catholic Church sure is filled with a bunch of whiners. It's like we whine about everything. I'm not talking about activism but really more of a passive, sit there and do nothing but whine, whine, whine. Nothing the pope does is good enough, everything is always done wrong in church, I have a bad bishop, our cardinals don't do squat. We sit here, smugly, in our "good little faithful Catholic existence" and at the same time turn our noses up at our local parish priest...because really, it's -- poor me, poor you, poor us. It's like we fail to appreciate the gifts in our church and what is positive about being Catholic -- we'd rather just sit there and... whine. Some of the most faithful Catholics can be just as spoiled and self-centered as the liberal Cafeteria Catholics are. We're so used to living in a "customized" world, it really is sometimes disturbing the state we put ourselves in at times. This isn't directed at anyone in particular on here -- and here I am, whining about people's whining. But I just had to rant because lately I've just noticed a lot of...whining.

Edited by Ash Wednesday
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[img]http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/angry017.gif[/img]




:lol: Sorry I couldn't resist.

My husband has a weird gift for reading my mind, and Im too lazy to type my whole opinion out, so if you care to know what I think [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=69380&pid=1298401&st=0&#entry1298401"]go here[/url]

Edited by Luthien
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Ash Wednesday

[quote name='Luthien' post='1298405' date='Jun 19 2007, 12:08 PM'][img]http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/angry017.gif[/img][/quote]

:lol_roll: :lol_roll: :lol_roll:

Edited by Ash Wednesday
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[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1298403' date='Jun 19 2007, 10:56 AM']One of the things I've noticed lately is that -- I know we are a big church and all with a billion members, but good lord, the Catholic Church sure is filled with a bunch of whiners. It's like we whine about everything. I'm not talking about activism but really more of a passive, sit there and do nothing but whine, whine, whine. Nothing the pope does is good enough, everything is always done wrong in church, I have a bad bishop, our cardinals don't do squat... poor me, poor you, poor us. It's like we fail to appreciate the gifts in our church and what is positive about being Catholic -- we'd rather just sit there and... whine.[/quote]
I totally agree. People are all too happy to point out problems, but when it comes to doing the hard work of actually fixing them they can't seem to get on board, and will actually abandon ship rather than be inconvenienced. Whiney laziness accomplishes nothing except fomenting division. At root, it's an unwillingness to suffer, and thus an unwillingness to truly love.

For what it's worth, it's an attitude we see all over in our culture. Marriage getting difficult? There's always divorce. Friendship getting difficult? Just disengage and walk away. Tough time getting along with the neighbors? Walk in your house and close the door. We're told over and over that our happiness is paramount, and that the we are the only ones who will look out for our well-being, and that we shouldn't have to suffer or endure pain or work too hard. In the broader culture, these types of attitudes are harmful as well, but understandandable, because so many people don't understand the call to unconditional sacrificial love. But those of us who do understand the call to unconditional sacrificial love, and commemorate it every week in Mass, have no excuse. I simply cannot respect the decisions of people to fail to engage and work toward holiness and unity within their local parishes and the church as a whole.

I'm not saying this is true of every person who attends a Latin Mass, but I think it is a significant problem within the church, and one that's not being addressed. We aren't Protestants, but we certainly act like it when it comes to choosing churches.

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[quote name='Luthien' post='1298405' date='Jun 19 2007, 11:08 AM'][img]http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/angry017.gif[/img][/quote]
:hehehe:

that is my new favorite smiley!

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