Young Priests Push For Pre-vat2 Customs

[Lil Red]

you all might be interested in this article i found today:

[url="http://tcrnews2.com/Opinion07.html"]http://tcrnews2.com/Opinion07.html[/url]

a few excerpts:
[quote]"In a recent interview with the website 'angelqueen,' a traditionalist Catholic blog, Bishop Fernando Areas Rifan, Superior of the Apostolic Administration of the Society of St. John Vianney in Campos, Brazil, outlined and discussed what he considered 'the seven capital sins of the traditionalists, that is, temptations and dangers where they can fall in, and sometimes do fall.' His list includes pride, lack of charity, rash judgment, scandal mongering, disputatiousness, pessimism, and a cultish group spirit.

"Though some traditionalist Catholics have openly denied Bishop Rifana's accusations, I think the sins and temptations that Bishop Rifan describes are real. In fact, I know that they are real because I have experienced them tempting me, and I have sometimes given in to them. . . .

". . . .Cannot traditionalism become an ideology that, even though quite correct in some areas in its analysis of the crisis in the Church and world, nevertheless makes one spiritually sick, as one becomes more attached to the traditionalist movement, it's narratives, personages, publications, polemics, criticisms, etc., than to the Church as a whole--and to Christ Himself? The apotheosis of idiosyncrasy is a formidable American temptation, is it not? What about the temptations to an 'inner-circle' pride, an overly critical and judgmental spirit, and an 'I-am-attending-the-superior- Mass' self-consciousness? Aren't these quite present in traditionalist circles?

". . . . [W]e lovers of Catholic tradition must be especially wary. We must be wary of whatever endangers our childlike receptivity to the Church's Tradition and a sense of the 'giftness' of salvation. We must be wary of choosing Tradition, like modern, self-conscious spiritual 'adults.' Instead, we must aspire to receive it, like Teresian spiritual children."[/quote]

[TotusTuusMaria]

So basically it is wrong to attend the Latin Mass because by attending it one is being selfish and greedy?

What DOES constitute a good reason for attending? If you cannot attend because you like the mass, because you find in it beauty, because you are able to worship Christ better... then what is the reason that one should attend the Latin Mass? Because they don't like it and need to sacrifice their preferance for the Mass said in English so as to have something to offer up? Why does the TLM still even exist if it is pure selfishness and greediness for people to attend it?

The only split that this has ever caused is when the people who attend TLM and those who do not cannot respect the other's decisions. That is where the rift comes in.

[mortify]

Well, there have been some wonderful responses. Obviously those who are part of a group/movement in the Church that is not threatened by extinction can't understand the diffculties at hand, but for those who are "traditional," you know what is at stake.

I encourage visiting a Tridentine high mass and comparing it's missal to the novus ordo. You'll realize the Tridentine Rite has a totally different missal, and perhaps you'll find some interesting facts when you delve into why certain things were dropped or changed.

[mortify]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1298554' date='Jun 19 2007, 03:08 PM']The only split that this has ever caused is when the people who attend TLM and those who do not cannot respect the other's decisions. That is where the rift comes in.[/quote]

Beautifully said.

If someone in a traditional parish can't stand up during the liturgy and start clapping there hands and singing in tongues, what are they to do? Stick it out, try to alter the liturgy and get the parish on their side? Why not just find a Charismatic parish? Apparently there's nothing wrong with the growing Charismatic [i]renewal[/i], which seems to have enveloped the Church, but try joining the "Traditional renewal," and see how much opposition you'll face. It's simply not reasonable. There is a very real opposition to the existence of the Tridentine rite and everything associated with it, it's unfair to tell Catholics to sit down and shut up while the opposition against them is aggressive.

Edited June 19, 2007 by mortify

[SJP]

[quote]Terra Firma writes: You're going to have to go a ways farther to convince me that personal preference is a valid reason to leave a parish.[/quote]

Well, I happen to believes that the TLM is superior to the NO in terms of both beauty (which we've established to be of great importance via our Holy Father, see post #22) and in terms of the prayers.

If a person believes that attending the TLM is the best way to worship God because of the aforementioned reasons, I see no further need for justification.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that remaining in a parish where liturgical abuse is common practice is necessarily a good thing. What kind of message are we sending if we remain in a parish where abuse is common? Especially if one has brought these matters to the Priest and the abuse continues.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1298554' date='Jun 19 2007, 03:08 PM']So basically it is wrong to attend the Latin Mass because by attending it one is being selfish and greedy?

What DOES constitute a good reason for attending? If you cannot attend because you like the mass, because you find in it beauty, because you are able to worship Christ better... then what is the reason that one should attend the Latin Mass? Because they don't like it and need to sacrifice their preferance for the Mass said in English so as to have something to offer up? Why does the TLM still even exist if it is pure selfishness and greediness for people to attend it?

The only split that this has ever caused is when the people who attend TLM and those who do not cannot respect the other's decisions. That is where the rift comes in.[/quote]
You obviously have not been close to someone in your parish who has left because your parish and fellowship with you and others is not good enough. I've been on the leaving end and had to clean up the mess I left behind afterwards. There is no doubt it creates a rift.

Good reason for attending: You know, people used to be members of the parishes within whose boundaries they lived. That seems to me to be a reasonable way to choose a parish.

[quote name='mortify' post='1298557' date='Jun 19 2007, 03:17 PM']Beautifully said.

If someone in a traditional parish can't stand up during the liturgy and start clapping there hands and singing in tongues, what are they to do? Stick it out, try to alter the liturgy and get the parish on their side? Why not just find a Charismatic parish? Apparently there's nothing wrong with the growing Charismatic [i]renewal[/i], which seems to have enveloped the Church, but try joining the "Traditional renewal," and see how much opposition you'll face. It's simply not reasonable. There is a very real opposition to the existence of the Tridentine rite and everything associated with it, it's unfair to tell Catholics to sit down and shut up while the opposition against them is aggressive.[/quote]
OK, let's not play the persecution card, eh? I have no opposition against Tridentine masses per se, and am in fact in favor of expanding the indult, as it appears possible will happen. And frankly, I see no problem with someone participating in both a Tridentine mass farther away and an NO mass at their local parish. What I am not in favor of is creating divides along interest lines. If the Tridentine mass produces such great fruits of holiness and piety, they should be shared with the whole church, not tucked away in pockets of Traditionalism. Same with a charismatic mass.

I'll reiterate my earlier comment about segregation along interest lines ... concentrating all the fingers in one church, the eyes in another church, and the noses in a third church, the church as a whole suffers. We grow in relationship, "as iron sharpens iron" -- even that analogy implies a difficult relationship that throws off sparks, but that requires a commitment to staying in relationship and recognizing the common bond that we all share as members of the same body who partake of the same body and blood of Christ.

[quote name='SJP' post='1298574' date='Jun 19 2007, 03:54 PM']Well, I happen to believes that the TLM is superior to the NO in terms of both beauty (which we've established to be of great importance via our Holy Father, see post #22) and in terms of the prayers.

If a person believes that attending the TLM is the best way to worship God because of the aforementioned reasons, I see no further need for justification.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that remaining in a parish where liturgical abuse is common practice is necessarily a good thing. What kind of message are we sending if we remain in a parish where abuse is common? Especially if one has brought these matters to the Priest and the abuse continues.[/quote]
So what church teaching are you relying on to support giving up on the parish you are part of? Find me one church teaching that says you should abandon a parish that is struggling and I'll change my tune.

In the meantime, I'd suggest you check the exhortation to the church in Sardis in Revelation 3, where those who remained holy in an otherwise dead church were specially commended. The thing is, we are in this together. We are not individuals working toward holiness but a community. We are to call one another to repentance and holiness. We are responsible not only for our own faith but also to nurture the faith of our brothers and sisters.

[mortify]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298619' date='Jun 19 2007, 05:03 PM']OK, let's not play the persecution card, eh?[/quote]

Phrases like that bankrupt the meaning of a statement it targets. There is opposition to the traditional form of Catholicism while any novelty is met with leniency, acceptance, and even praise. Don't you think this sort of double standard fosters the divisions you criticize?

[quote]I have no opposition against Tridentine masses per se, and am in fact in favor of expanding the indult, as it appears possible will happen.[/quote]Why are you in favor of expanding it?

[quote]And frankly, I see no problem with someone participating in both a Tridentine mass farther away and an NO mass at their local parish.[/quote]

Nor is there a problem with someone attending the Tridentine mass exclusively.


[quote]What I am not in favor of is creating divides along interest lines. If the Tridentine mass produces such great fruits of holiness and piety, they should be shared with the whole church, not tucked away in pockets of Traditionalism. Same with a charismatic mass.[/quote]

Divisions along interest lines? Again, I'm fascinated interests in all sorts of contemporary movements are acceptable but a particular interest in tradition causes division. An interest in tradition causes no more division than an interest in the charismatic movement.

The one's who oppose the gems of tradition are the one's causing division.

Edited June 19, 2007 by mortify

[Sojourner]

I don't believe I have anything more to add to this conversation. I'm happy to continue the discussion privately with anyone who wishes to, but I'll not post any longer in this thread.

Blessings to all of you.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1298238' date='Jun 18 2007, 09:48 PM']I know people who travel long distances to go to TLM. I know people who have left good, orthodox parishes -- uprooted their families -- just because they felt TLM was better. I now increasingly have difficulty respecting that kind of decision. I think it has the potential to create great divisions in the church. I think it creates a situation where disrespect for Church leadership can flourish. I think it takes good, orthodox families out of parishes where these influences are [i]badly needed[/i]. For these reasons, I am inclined to see these types of choices as being motivated more by selfishness and pride than out of a desire for holiness.[/quote]
I can kind of see both sides to this issue.

I know people in my town who used to drive an hour and a half every Sunday to attend the Tridentine Mass. However, now that there is an indult Tridentine Mass at our parish they now attend at our parish.
Especially as my parish is generally far from "liberal," I did kind of feel there was something wrong about driving that distance just to go to TLM, but it really isn't my place to judge these people's hearts.
I think more than selfishness and pride, it was more about their own beliefs on the Liturgy and the importance of TLM, which may be misguided, but I think it's a stretch to judge that it's all out of personal snottiness. Your statement sounded rather judgmental, imo.

And about orthodox families being most badly needed in "bad" parishes, there can be another side of this as well. What about parents raising children who want them to be raised in an orthodox parish with reverent liturgy, rather than some goofy liberal parish - especially as the children are being formed in their faith at this time?

I agree that there are certain problems that tend to be prevelent in "Traditionalist" circles - tendencies to self-righteousness, excessive negativity/criticalness, and for some Traditionalism can even become a slippery slope toward schism.
However, to characterize all who attend TLM this way is no more fair than to call all who prefer the NO a bunch of liberal, hippy-dippy, protestantized cafeteria-Catholics.

I generally attend the NO (mostly because TLM is scheduled inconveniently late in the day), but certainly don't look down on those who reguarly attend TLM Sunday afternoons. One group should not see themselves as "more Catholic" than the other. And I think there can be just as much a problem of "NO Catholics" having an attitude of "Thank you Lord that I am not like those judgmental, phariseeical schismatic-leaning Trads."

I think a universal indult, or at least allowing TLM in more places would be beneficial, as it could help welcome Traditionalists who feel they are being marginalized by the Church.
I'd agree with Mortify that nowadays, Church leaders seem to go out of their way to make various groups feel more "welcome," yet the traditional-minded and other "conservatives" are not extended the same welcome.

[Maggyie]

Oops, I hope I didn't come off unpleasant When I said "threatened" what I meant to convey was that I don't think a preference for this liturgy or that threatens our unity as Catholics. I think it's important that we all [i]respect [/i]each other's choices, so long as they are within what the Church allows. Not that we have to agree with them or anything

Of course, there are lousy attitudes that can incubated in a Tridentine or Charismatic or insert-adjective-here parish, just as in the past there was probably some insularity in the ethnic-specific Polish or German parishes. Canonically speaking I know we are supposed to attend the parish whose boundaries we live in. But it was my impression that indult communities, just like ethnic or Eastern rite parishes, were established to serve a particular community within the Church and that the normal geographic rules don't apply. Does anyone know if this is the case?

[Guest JohnA]

This series of emails prompted me--a long time viewer, but not poster--to get
an account on Phatmass tonight. I couldn't remain silent.

I disagree TO THE CORE with Terra Firma. I am a young father of three.
I drive an hour one way every Sunday and Holy Day to attend the Tridentine
Mass. It is my preference, to be sure. The first time I read a pre-Vatican II
missal (when I was ~14), I was hooked. I am concerned about my children
receiving the faith and understanding the awesome nature of the Mass. I watched
in horror as all of the nieces and nephews in my large extended family fell away
from the faith as they attended average Novus Ordo parishes and catechism
programs. Their parents (my siblings) thought that attending their territorial
parishes was good enough: IT WASN'T.

All the many people I've met over the years who have suffered and sacrificed
to attend the Traditional Mass have a great thirst to love and serve God and to
defend and protect His Church. We have no desire to force others to attend the
Traditional Mass, but I'm mystified why Novus Ordo Catholics won't extend the
same courtesy to Traditional Catholics.

There is absolutely NO WAY I would stay in a parish with abuses. What does
it teach the children? Kids learn by actions, in addition to words. If Traditional
Catholics hadn't petitioned and prayed and lobbied and demonstrated and
sacrificed for the Traditional Mass, we wouldn't have all those terrific young
priests and nuns today in the Vatican-approved Traditional orders. They
are a blessing to the Church--the entire Church Universal...and their numbers
continue to grow (Deo Gratias!)

No...I would suggest that every Catholic has a God-given RIGHT to attend
a legitimate Catholic liturgy that clearly and beautifully transmits the meaning
of the Eucharisic Sacrifice. If "territorial" parishes fail because they are not
doing their job, so be it. Every week, new families join our "Indult" Mass
family. Thank Our Dear Lord for automobiles and gasoline.

+JMJ+
JohnA

[Luthien]

[quote name='JohnA' post='1299204' date='Jun 21 2007, 01:16 AM']This series of emails prompted me--a long time viewer, but not poster--to get
an account on Phatmass tonight. I couldn't remain silent.

I disagree TO THE CORE with Terra Firma. I am a young father of three.
I drive an hour one way every Sunday and Holy Day to attend the Tridentine
Mass. It is my preference, to be sure. The first time I read a pre-Vatican II
missal (when I was ~14), I was hooked. I am concerned about my children
receiving the faith and understanding the awesome nature of the Mass. I watched
in horror as all of the nieces and nephews in my large extended family fell away
from the faith as they attended average Novus Ordo parishes and catechism
programs. Their parents (my siblings) thought that attending their territorial
parishes was good enough: IT WASN'T.

All the many people I've met over the years who have suffered and sacrificed
to attend the Traditional Mass have a great thirst to love and serve God and to
defend and protect His Church. We have no desire to force others to attend the
Traditional Mass, but I'm mystified why Novus Ordo Catholics won't extend the
same courtesy to Traditional Catholics.

There is absolutely NO WAY I would stay in a parish with abuses. What does
it teach the children? Kids learn by actions, in addition to words. If Traditional
Catholics hadn't petitioned and prayed and lobbied and demonstrated and
sacrificed for the Traditional Mass, we wouldn't have all those terrific young
priests and nuns today in the Vatican-approved Traditional orders. They
are a blessing to the Church--the entire Church Universal...and their numbers
continue to grow (Deo Gratias!)

No...I would suggest that every Catholic has a God-given RIGHT to attend
a legitimate Catholic liturgy that clearly and beautifully transmits the meaning
of the Eucharisic Sacrifice. If "territorial" parishes fail because they are not
doing their job, so be it. Every week, new families join our "Indult" Mass
family. Thank Our Dear Lord for automobiles and gasoline.

+JMJ+
JohnA[/quote]

Very well said JohnA.

[Lil Red]

i see no need for this thread to continue. thread closed.

[Lil Red]

i apologize for closing this thread prematurely.

i just beg of everyone to keep charity and the phorum guidelines in mind. every time we have a thread about traditionalists, orthodox catholics, catholics and liberals, we end up tearing each other down. my morale gets low every time i read these threads. honestly, i hate them.

p.s. john a, welcome to phatmass. my intention was not to make you feel unwelcome. i hope you stick around.

[kafka]

I take the high middle ground