Where Should Catholic Music Go From Here?

[abercius24]

This topic is set to discuss what Catholic music is, what good and bad experiences we all have with Catholic music, and where Catholic music should go from here. I'm particularly interested in everyone helping Catholic musicians define their own identities and group objectives, but also to help audiences see what possibilites may lie ahead for us to support. Try to keep criticisms as polite as possible without loosing your meaning (unitive language instead of divisive language). Please take the polls, too! Alright, now let's have at it!

[RezaMikhaeil]

Thou I'm not Roman Catholic, I participated anyways because it equally applies to Orthodox.

I don't believe that we should "move away" from any musical forms. That hymns are equally [and for liturgical reasons] vitally important still but that we should also encourage other genres outside of Church.

Statistically over 75% of all music played on the radios worldwide is Hiphop, and it's obviously the most popular musical genre in the world. Hiphop artists gross the most revenues, push the most records, etc. Therefore if that particular genre does the best financially, then obviously that is the genre that should be pushed.

I'd also like to see [thou I didn't vote for it] some more "contemporary praise and worship" music. I don't like it myself [infact I can't stand it] but it's controlled at the moment by these "word of faith / prosperity doctrine" protestant charismatic christians and I'd like there to be some sanity injected in there.

Reza

[misereremi]

Oh my days, this is an interesting discussion! A topic that I think about almost daily.

I voted "other" in the first and second questions- because I don't believe it's so much one particular music genre that we should be moving towards or away from, but a greater effort to bring out orthodox Catholic messages in all these genres (if they are lyrics-based).

I think within the Catholic community there should be more openness to experimentation with unpopular genres. Sometimes hip-hop or extreme metal musicians are put down by fellow Catholics because they are not "into" our music. Fairplay to that, but we should all be in this together, whatever the genre, whether you like it or not- we are all Catholics and we should try to support the Catholic music movement as a whole. I dislike chartsy pop music, but if a good Catholic got into the mainstream charts with a lyrically sound track, I would support it.

I think we should be "all things to all men", and have a foothold in every kind of genre. By the way, this is all strictly OUTSIDE the mass, of course!!! I'd love to hear more[b] traditional [/b]hymns and [b]chant [/b]in mass and much much less of the hippie stuff. The younger generations want hard-core Catholicism, not wishy-washiness.

Praise and worship music doesn't have to be cheesy or camp. In the Uk we have some young composers like E. Fawcett who are going in intersting directions with it.

I did some collaborations with eletronika/drum&bass/garage instrumental collectives e.g. New Jerusalem Projekt which incorporated a lot of Gregorian chant. Our direction now is to get more into the [i]Eastern[/i] influences. I'm very much into Mozarabic chant. I think we can develop our own contemporary styles based on the ancient chants- just like there is modern Sufi music (which was taken from our chant ayways), we can and should have our own- and take pride in our own ancient music heritage.

With hip-hop and metal I think we should be more explicitly and less subtley Catholic, in our lyrics and lifestyles. This doesn't mean every track has to be about the history of the Church, but it should aim to develop an orthodox Catholic youth culture. I admire a lot of the rappers on phatmass, esp Era Might, and the people in the unblack metal movement and other extreme metal musicians (go Didymus!) and so on, who are able to appeal to secular crowds while keeping strictly Catholic.

My two pence.

[misereremi]

and I forgot to mention that it'd be nice to have our own reggae/ragga artists, too.

[Franimus]

ditto what misereremi said about most everything.
ditto what reza said about not "moving away" from anything
btw reza - check out matt maher, martin doman, and tom booth for contemporary catholic p&w, but i have no idea about who it's controlled by since i only hear p&w at steubenville

anywho, there is an extreme shortage of Catholic and Christian rock. I mean good rock. There's plenty of a mix between p&w and soft rock, which i can't stand to listen to, but there's virtually no good-sounding rock. I'm not even talking hard rock, either, although that would be nice too. Just plain rock.

I'd say Catholic music is that which [u]promotes[/u] a true Catholic lifestyle, and is written by a Catholic or maybe "nearly Catholic" artist. Good (in the moral sense) music is that which promotes a moral lifestyle (which is practically synonymous with a Catholic lifestyle) and is written by any artist. Acceptable music is that which does not promote an immoral lifestyle and is not offensive to the faith (or persons of the faith).

As far as the Mass goes, I'd like to see a movement back towards traditional hymns. Technically, those are p&w too, but I don't like contemporary p&w at Mass. The reason I like hymns at Mass is that they are musically simple and thus focus on the lyrics. They promote praying through singing. Contemporary p&w is musically (not the lyrics) more focused on empowering people or making them feel good and is not as simple as hymns. The lyrics are often still prayerful, though, but it is not as easy to focus on them as a prayer (although I realize this may not be the case with others).

[EJames]

Good discussion on the best Liturgical website is below
-
All forms of music belong at Mass?
posted by Jeffrey Tucker -opening article
[url="http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2007/06/all-forms-of-music-belong-at-mass.html"]http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.c...ng-at-mass.html[/url]
-
discussion here:
[url="http://www.haloscan.com/comments/stribe/8906988166243780756/"]http://www.haloscan.com/comments/stribe/8906988166243780756/[/url]
-
and i'll end with this quote from it
and this relates a bit to your poll.

"Personally, I find it incredible that that [u]a central mandate [/u]of the Second Vatican Council, so clearly stated in the conciliar documents, could be so easily passed over: namely, [u]that Gregorian chant and polyphony are uniquely suited to Roman Rite[/u] worship. Paul VI reinforced this and [u]mandated chant[/u] in strong terms. John Paul II further stated that the closer a piece of music approaches the sensibility of chant, the more appropriate it is. Pope Benedict has said the same and more."
PAX!!

Catholic Apostolic Church---- its not a democracy...

Edited June 28, 2007 by EJames

[abercius24]

One of the reasons why I ask where we should go from here is more for economic reasons -- allocating limited resources. Catholic music is still in its infancy. Apart from just a few blessed folks, most Catholic musicians have daytime jobs and practice/perform on the weekends. There is still a lot of volunteer work and personal sacrifice that goes into making things happen. The good majority of resources today are geared toward traditional and praise&worship artists, which make up the majority of Catholic albums you will find. Many original and contemporary artists find themselves as a minority among the P&Wers and Trads. The two bands I've played in experienced many canceled venues after the booking agent discovered we would not be playing P&W covers. The Life Teen movement, for example, is almost entirely made up of P&W artists. Even Catholic producers who support contemporary Catholic music have to share the greater part of their resources with P&W bands. Many state that P&W is what Catholics want and nothing else. They say Catholics like to sing along to songs they know. So I'd like to know if this is true. Assuming resources are limited, what does everyone want to hear?

[Didymus]

i think most all Catholics want to hear more than just praise and worship, but many don't know it yet because they don't trust that it can be done. Many have heard what they thought would be the limit to how 'real' Catholic music could sound, and they were very dissapointed because what was passed off as rock and what was passed off as pop was sorely lacking and felt like it emphasized the Catholic part of it rather than the music part. One should start with the fact that it's music and then go from there, whereas alot of it sounded like some youth ministers or whoever decided to pick up a guitar and start writing about all the Catholic theology and experience they know well about - without actually knowing how to play the guitar. This of course is an extreme, as the music is not that bad, but sometimes Catholic music sounds like the artist had no experience whatsoever in the secular version of their particular genre. This is why Phatmass has been such an inspiration to me, even though I was never really too much into hip-hop. The phatmass artists actually sound like they would make it in the secular hip-hop world, and they still have hardcore Catholic lyrics. I want so badly for that to be the case with Catholic rock, it's just happening very slowly.

I think one of the main reasons is this:

say Joe and Sally play rock n roll in a mainstream rock band. One day, they all of a sudden just feel they have a calling to get into doing Catholic music. So they start writing music for Catholics, but instead of writing just like they did before, they soften it up so that more of the Catholics will be into it, and none of their fans would be turned away by their extremely heavy guitar riffs and screaming solos. Now it's toned down so they don't turn away some musically, but they have lost the respect of the masses because they sound like a boring band with some Catholic lyrics. Instead, they should have kept the [i]exact[/i] same style that brought them success in the secular world, and directly apply it to their Catholic lyrics. This way, all of the Catholics who enjoy heavy rock actually get into them to the point that they would support them like they do their favorite secular bands - not because they're Catholic - but becuase they freakin rawk... This would in turn inspire other artists and bands to do the same - to best maintain the genre they associate with in the secular world and use it in the Catholic world...

[misereremi]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1304490' date='Jun 28 2007, 10:56 PM']The two bands I've played in experienced many canceled venues after the booking agent discovered we would not be playing P&W covers.[/quote] That's typical and very frustrating (been there, too...)- I get what you're saying about resources. People play it safe and go with the more glossy singalong P&W soft rock or whatever- because it [i]does[/i] appeal to that circle of Catholics who go to those retreats/concerts etc. and like that type of thing (I don't know what life teen is, we haven't got that here ). We need some Catholic labels/producers that are willing to take risks, but I guess we need to make the case for it. Phatmass is already doing this with hip-hop in the US. I echo what Didymus was saying about trusting that it can take off. All we need is one mic...

I suppose one of the questions is: who is our target audience? Just Catholics in our tight circles, or everybody? Who and what are we making this music for? I think many of the organisers/promoters who allocate resources should think about this. Music is an awesome means of evangelisation. Musical genres like hip-hop and metal reach out to wider audiences and can be used to bring non-Catholics into the Church a lot more quickly than P&W ever will. You'll get much larger crowds coming if your band... rawks.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1304533' date='Jun 28 2007, 05:28 PM']say Joe and Sally play rock n roll in a mainstream rock band. One day, they all of a sudden just feel they have a calling to get into doing Catholic music. So they start writing music for Catholics, but instead of writing just like they did before, they soften it up so that more of the Catholics will be into it, and none of their fans would be turned away by their extremely heavy guitar riffs and screaming solos. Now it's toned down so they don't turn away some musically, but they have lost the respect of the masses because they sound like a boring band with some Catholic lyrics. Instead, they should have kept the [i]exact[/i] same style that brought them success in the secular world, and directly apply it to their Catholic lyrics. This way, all of the Catholics who enjoy heavy rock actually get into them to the point that they would support them like they do their favorite secular bands - not because they're Catholic - but becuase they freakin rawk... This would in turn inspire other artists and bands to do the same - to best maintain the genre they associate with in the secular world and use it in the Catholic world...[/quote]

This is a very interesting point you make. When Catholics get that calling, its usually quite profound and intimidating. As a result, they play it safe because they feel like they are in uncharted territory. Probably the greatest fear is that they will do something associated with the rock lifestyle that other Catholics may find offensive or uncomfortable. For example, the headbanger hand signal. Many Catholics understand this sign to be the sign of the devil. Have a Catholic rocker do that once, and they'll have Youth Minister Ted all over them after the gig. I guess there are two things that must happen to make it easier for artists like that to make the transition. First, we gotta be a bit more understanding with such instances. To jump all over people for such petty things like that is destructive at best. When people are in a situation that makes them more emotionally sensitive, you gotta give them space to grow. Second, we need to communicate more within our different networks so that this new culture can be unified and understood. I found that the simple "I love you" sign works just as good as the headbanger sign, and it adds a flavor of righteousness, too. I was only exposed to that idea within the last year, though. But I guess this second need is just what this website and this thread are meant to do -- communicate. We just gotta get more people on here! :-)


[quote name='misereremi' post='1304534' date='Jun 28 2007, 07:14 PM']I suppose one of the questions is: who is our target audience? Just Catholics in our tight circles, or everybody? Who and what are we making this music for? I think many of the organisers/promoters who allocate resources should think about this. Music is an awesome means of evangelisation. Musical genres like hip-hop and metal reach out to wider audiences and can be used to bring non-Catholics into the Church a lot more quickly than P&W ever will. You'll get much larger crowds coming if your band... rawks.[/quote]

Man oh man...that has been the question kicking me in the gut for the longest time. I've played in front of youth groups that were dancing on the chairs one night, and then other youth groups that looked like they were watching their parole officer perform on stage the next. I still have yet to figure out what the difference was between the two groups. And yes, music is a shockingly effective form of evangelization -- one of the reasons I moved from door-to-door evangelization to mass evangelization on-stage.

My friend Barbra Nicoloisi from Act One Productions once said to me:
"The biggest problem with evangelization is that everyone does it one-on-one. After you speak with that one person, they return to the community they live in and they go back to their old lifestyle. They find it too hard to deny their environment just to become Catholic. What we need is to do is evangelize their community. If we make changes to their community, we make the one-on-one more effective. And you can only change a community with culture -- music, film, literature and art. That's where evangelization need to go." [paraphrasing]

After almost 10 years working as an evangelist, I've come to realize that Barbra is sooooo right. I've seen people on fire for the Lord after a good talk, and the next day they are out clubbing with their not-so-holy friends doing those not-so-holy activities. Imagine if they went to a show and found a Catholic band convicting them and their friends. Imagine the conversations they and their friends would have afterwards. That's what it's about, and that what Catholic musicians are called to do.

[Era Might]

[quote name='misereremi' post='1304713' date='Jun 28 2007, 07:14 PM']Musical genres like hip-hop and metal reach out to wider audiences and can be used to bring non-Catholics into the Church a lot more quickly than P&W ever will. You'll get much larger crowds coming if your band... rawks.[/quote]
And the great thing about Hip Hop is that it's not just music, it's a culture, so we can even build in other ways besides music if we have the people to do so. I would love to see some kind of youth outreach in city parishes where Hip Hop is common. The youth could come and learn how to scratch, breakdance, graffiti, stuff like that (and keep it clean). It could be used as a way to build a relationship with the parish and hopefully sow seeds of the Gospel while giving the youth something positive to build with. I don't expect 60 year old Priests to do that, but maybe in the future it will happen with younger Priests who grew up with Hip Hop. We can use Hip Hop to become a real presence in the community, and the music can be the first step in that direction that gets their attention.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1304808' date='Jun 28 2007, 09:39 PM']And the great thing about Hip Hop is that it's not just music, it's a culture, so we can even build in other ways besides music if we have the people to do so. I would love to see some kind of youth outreach in city parishes where Hip Hop is common. The youth could come and learn how to scratch, breakdance, graffiti, stuff like that (and keep it clean). It could be used as a way to build a relationship with the parish and hopefully sow seeds of the Gospel while giving the youth something positive to build with. I don't expect 60 year old Priests to do that, but maybe in the future it will happen with younger Priests who grew up with Hip Hop. We can use Hip Hop to become a real presence in the community, and the music can be the first step in that direction that gets their attention.[/quote]

You know, I haven't been a fan of Hip Hop since the days of Run-DMC. I still can't identify with some of the styles, but within the last year or so, I've been seeing exactly what you are talking about. I'm truly beginning to find myself a big fan of Catholic Hip Hop's mission within the Church.

[Socrates]

This is a weird poll, as it basically compares apples and oranges, so I really couldn't answer.

Basically, some of the categories were about Church/liturgical music, while others were about "secular" styles.

I'd say only traditional hymns and chant/polyphony be used in the liturgy, and everything else be done away with (including "glory & praise" type tunes).

Outside the liturgy, I'd say whatever's effective for evangelizing. I'm personally not a fan of rap/hip-hop as a genre (and not just for moral reasons), but I applaud phatmass's work, if it helps spread the Gospel and the Faith.

But some forms of music I don't think would be very compatible with overtly religious messages (such as club/techno or industrial).

And I think truly Catholic music should not just be a "religious" rip-off of whatever's popular in the secular scene.

Just my .02.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1304879' date='Jun 28 2007, 10:50 PM']And I think truly Catholic music should not just be a "religious" rip-off of whatever's popular in the secular scene.[/quote]

exactly. Catholic artists need to have a sense of musical originality. Otherwise we're giving the world reason to believe that it's ripped-off of popular music. Not all Catholic bands/artisits have 'converted' from secular music, but they all should write and perform as if they did.

Make an atheist want to buy your cd because it just [i]sounds good[/i].

[saint_wannabe]

electric guitars with distortion in church. + some new songs i dont like the old school hymns.
eg "trading my sorrows"<< new school

Edited June 29, 2007 by saint_wannabe