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[quote name='scardella' post='1359144' date='Aug 15 2007, 06:13 AM']eh?

The ends/means issue is completely not the issue. The issue, as I see it, is that your arguments continuously point to an understanding that the vocal and meditative prayer either loses relevance or effectiveness as you gain the contemplative and I completely disagree. It is not possible to abandon vocal and meditative prayer, despite them being lesser prayer than contemplation.[/quote]


I have never said we should abandon vocal prayer once we reach the heights of holiness... it isn't a matter of abandoning, it is a changing of the focus... we shouldn't focus on vocal prayer when we have contemplation. Vocal prayer will *always* be a good thing (and if I have said or you have inferred anything other than that, my apologies), but it should no longer be the focus of our prayer life once we grow into the deeper prayer of contemplation, and to deny that contemplation is a deeper prayer than meditation or vocal prayer is to deny what doctors and saints of the Church have taught us.

As for what I said before... I don't know if this conversation is going to continue to bear any fruit, I feel like we are just butting heads...

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gurlie4godsd

[quote name='Dismas' post='1359171' date='Aug 15 2007, 09:04 AM']Well, to begin with, I am not of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and I plan to keep it that way.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt your earnest love of Jesus. I have no doubt in your awe in God's presence. Even so, I have very deep reservations for the whole of the CR.

Let's get down the the business of tongues.

I don't sit well with the idea of "Angelic Tongue". Angels don't have fleshy things stuck between fleshy and bony parts that alter vibrating air into a discrete set of unique sounds that, when strung together, form words. Angels are pure spirit, and communicate spiritually.

Secondly, of the Seven Gifts, I find it to be currently the least useful and perhaps most rare spiritual gift. Certainly, it does have its uses. One such modern example would be of St. Maximilian Kolbe's trip to Japan, penniless and knowing not a single word in Japanese, in six short years establishing a friary, seminary, newspaper, and radio station. Even so, I would think that prayers for gifts would be better applied towards Faith, Prophecy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing and Discernment of Spirits.

Lastly, there is the legitimage Charism of Understanding of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10). It seems to have been kicked into a corner and left to gather dust. Yet how many people know and can translate those tongues, be they angelic or foreign in nature? How many have tried? If there are only those who speak and none but God who understand, how can it be known to be tongue and not just regression into babble?

I'm not asking people to throw their ideas of chocolate milk away, and I don't find anything nefarious with it, just please understand that I have very strong doubts about that form of spirituality and the direction it might lead.[/quote]

I'm not familiar with the "angelic tongues" thing but you're right angels are pure spirit so I would think they would not speak in tongues...anyone have any clarification on that?

Also what I feel is not being understood is that there are several types of tongues:

1) One type is what the Apostles did at Pentecost where they spoke and the people understood despite the language barrier.
2) The second type is the kind for a group of people. If it is spoken to a whole group (ie. at a prayer meeting) and it will always have an interpretation by someone other than the person who spoke in tongues. If there is not an interpretation, it was not of the Lord. (Those with a gift of Discernment should pray with it first to see if it is of the Lord or not and/ or if it is meant to be shared)
3) The last form is the lowest form of the gift of Tongues and is the most common. This is when an individual prays in tongues to God. It's sor of like the Holy Spirit giving you the words when there are no more (sort of). This is a prayer "language" and just another way to vocally give praise to God.

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gurlie4godsd

[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1359578' date='Aug 15 2007, 06:39 PM']I'm not familiar with the "angelic tongues" thing but you're right angels are pure spirit so I would think they would not speak in tongues...anyone have any clarification on that?

Also what I feel is not being understood is that there are several types of tongues:

1) One type is what the Apostles did at Pentecost where they spoke and the people understood despite the language barrier.
2) The second type is the kind for a group of people. If it is spoken to a whole group (ie. at a prayer meeting) and it will always have an interpretation by someone other than the person who spoke in tongues. If there is not an interpretation, it was not of the Lord. (Those with a gift of Discernment should pray with it first to see if it is of the Lord or not and/ or if it is meant to be shared)
3) The last form is the lowest form of the gift of Tongues and is the most common. This is when an individual prays in tongues to God. It's sor of like the Holy Spirit giving you the words when there are no more (sort of). This is a prayer "language" and just another way to vocally give praise to God.[/quote]

oh and I forgot to add that the third type is also for praying over people...kinda important...oops..:)

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[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1359182' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:43 PM']This downplaying of communal prayer doesn't make any sense to me. The source and summit of our spiritual life (The Holy mass) is communal at its core. Any time we participate in any type of liturgy whether it is mass or Liturgy of the hours it is communal prayer. In fact the word liturgy means "a PUBLIC work".[/quote]
Those arguing against the necessity of communal prayer are not denying the role of the liturgy. There is NO communal prayer outside the mass that is required of the laity. None. It's completely optional, and thoroughly unnecessary for salvation. Beneficial? I'd say it depends on the person. Some communal prayer is a good thing for most people. That being said, one should note that private prayer should make up the bulk of your prayer life! Daily mass, and prayer meetings once or twice a week are good, but honestly everyone should be spending at least that much time in personal, private prayer. This is yet another reason I prefer the extraordinary form -- silence, and the rubrics are optional for the laity. I can actually meditate on the sacrifice at calvary during the mass. In a few low masses I'd attended, I spent the entirety of the mass in the back of the church kneeling, and there's nothing wrong with this! There's written accounts of St. Edith Stein (a vocal proponent of the 'dialog mass') spending every mass rapt in ecstacies.

And no, I don't always follow this advice -- I don't pray nearly enough. Likely, that's a problem that many other people share.

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[quote name='adt6247' post='1361195' date='Aug 17 2007, 11:23 AM']Those arguing against the necessity of communal prayer are not denying the role of the liturgy. There is NO communal prayer outside the mass that is required of the laity. None. It's completely optional, and thoroughly unnecessary for salvation. Beneficial? I'd say it depends on the person. Some communal prayer is a good thing for most people. That being said, one should note that private prayer should make up the bulk of your prayer life! Daily mass, and prayer meetings once or twice a week are good, but honestly everyone should be spending at least that much time in personal, private prayer. This is yet another reason I prefer the extraordinary form -- silence, and the rubrics are optional for the laity. I can actually meditate on the sacrifice at calvary during the mass. In a few low masses I'd attended, I spent the entirety of the mass in the back of the church kneeling, and there's nothing wrong with this! There's written accounts of St. Edith Stein (a vocal proponent of the 'dialog mass') spending every mass rapt in ecstacies.

And no, I don't always follow this advice -- I don't pray nearly enough. Likely, that's a problem that many other people share.[/quote]


I dunno, last time I met with my spiritual director he said I prayed too much.... HAHA HA HA HA :lol_roll: .. actually he told me if I ever told him that I was doing "just dandy" with my prayer life and everything was just fine... that that's when he'd start to get worried :D.

Fr. Corapi says that EVERY member of the laity should be spending at LEAST an hour in personal prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament a day. Oh how holy a nation we would have if even half of us Catholics practiced daily holy hours with the Blessed Sacrament, I need to work on that...

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[quote name='Slappo' post='1361303' date='Aug 17 2007, 05:20 PM']Fr. Corapi says that EVERY member of the laity should be spending at LEAST an hour in personal prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament a day. Oh how holy a nation we would have if even half of us Catholics practiced daily holy hours with the Blessed Sacrament, I need to work on that...[/quote]
:clap: Amen! And it's amazng how fast an hour will go by too. It sounds like such a huge chunk of time, but if you think about how long it takes to watch an hour long television show, it doesn't seem as long then does it? I admit I myself have fallen into spiritual laziness, when I could easily make time to pray. I have time to go to mass early and spend time in prayer, and there are plenty of times when I could take a break and say a rosary (it only takes 15 minutes...that's a commercial break on some television stations).

My views on the chaismatic movement ould take alot more time to express, so I'll probably coe back to that when I feel like typing ALOT. ;)

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[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1359578' date='Aug 15 2007, 08:39 PM']3) The last form is the lowest form of the gift of Tongues and is the most common. This is when an individual prays in tongues to God. It's sor of like the Holy Spirit giving you the words when there are no more (sort of). This is a prayer "language" and just another way to vocally give praise to God.[/quote]

And this is the point of contention for me.

I do not see this as a language. A form of ecstasy perhaps, but certainly not a deliberate form of communication. An unhinging of the conscious mind perhaps as well as far as I can tell...

Oh well, call me old fashioned. I'd take silence over cacophony any day.

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Disclaimer to this post... I was born an inquisitive man...
[quote name='Dismas' post='1359171' date='Aug 15 2007, 11:04 AM']Well, to begin with, I am not of the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and I plan to keep it that way.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt your earnest love of Jesus. I have no doubt in your awe in God's presence. Even so, I have very deep reservations for the whole of the CR.

Let's get down the the business of tongues.

I don't sit well with the idea of "Angelic Tongue". Angels don't have fleshy things stuck between fleshy and bony parts that alter vibrating air into a discrete set of unique sounds that, when strung together, form words. Angels are pure spirit, and communicate spiritually.

Secondly, of the Seven Gifts, I find it to be currently the least useful and perhaps most rare spiritual gift. Certainly, it does have its uses. One such modern example would be of St. Maximilian Kolbe's trip to Japan, penniless and knowing not a single word in Japanese, in six short years establishing a friary, seminary, newspaper, and radio station. Even so, I would think that prayers for gifts would be better applied towards Faith, Prophecy, Wisdom, Knowledge, Healing and Discernment of Spirits.

Lastly, there is the legitimage Charism of Understanding of Tongues (1 Cor 12:10). It seems to have been kicked into a corner and left to gather dust. Yet how many people know and can translate those tongues, be they angelic or foreign in nature? How many have tried? If there are only those who speak and none but God who understand, how can it be known to be tongue and not just regression into babble?

I'm not asking people to throw their ideas of chocolate milk away, and I don't find anything nefarious with it, just please understand that I have very strong doubts about that form of spirituality and the direction it might lead.[/quote]
Yes, I have some doubts as well. Seriously, this whole thing came up in the last 30 years, and has been known to be Pentecostal. Why are we just hearing about these "Charismatic gifts" now? I know Charisms have been around forever, but the pentecostal type have been sort of hiding until recently... I need a reader's digest of the history on this, STAT!

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1359182' date='Aug 15 2007, 11:43 AM']This downplaying of communal prayer doesn't make any sense to me. The source and summit of our spiritual life (The Holy mass) is communal at its core. Any time we participate in any type of liturgy whether it is mass or Liturgy of the hours it is communal prayer. In fact the word liturgy means "a PUBLIC work". That is why most of our catholic prayers center around presiding and responding. What is the body of christ if it is not communal. What are the sacraments which give us life if they are not communal prayer. What about unity of husband and wife, works of mercy, and even evangelization, these are all obligations within our vocations. Even when we pray by ourselves we really aren't because we are united with other Catholics around the world and the saints and angels themselves supernaturally, even united with the God through the Holy Spririt who teaches us how to pray. There isn't one person here who has ever prayed alone, or a had "a personal prayer life" in the true sense of the phrase. We by our baptism move, live, and increase in spirituality as a body of Christ and to do it alone would be outside of the body. Just as when we sin we hurt the body of Christ, beacuse of the unity of one baptism, when we pray we strengthen the body. We have never prayed alone and will never pray alone. One basic idea of the trinity is that because we were created in its image we cannot and will not exist outside of a unity of love, which we find at the core of Gods being. Community is everything, seen or unseen.[/quote]
Amen.

[quote name='scardella' post='1359243' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:58 PM']I'll just tell you what I know.

I've heard the following testimony multiple times from different people who'd just attended a Steubenville-type conference (paraphrasing of course):
"When the monstrance was exposing the Eucharist, I was praising the Lord saying things like King of Kings, You are awesome, Lord, etc. However, in the midst of this praising, one of my friends looked over and told me that I was praying in tongues. I was surprised because I was praying things quite intelligible to me. However, he (and others) reaffirmed that I was, indeed, praying in tongues."

In charismatic meetings (particularly at the Center of Jesus the Lord - yes, it's Catholic - but also at Steubenville Festival of Praises) I've seen the following phenomenon:
In the midst of silence, a person got up in front of everyone (or just in a loud voice so everyone could hear) and started speaking in unintelligible tongues. After 10-15 seconds another person called out the interpretation.

A story that I heard, and I have no reason to doubt it:
A couple of years ago, a number of FUS students were in Poland trying to find the Divine Mercy shrine. They hailed a cab and had difficulty indicating that they wanted to go to the Divine Mercy Shrine. Naturally, they didn't know a lick of Polish. What they wound up doing was praying over one of the students, and the student spoke in tongues to the cabby. The cabby wound up bringing them to the Divine Mercy Shrine. I don't remember the story any better than that, though.[/quote]
Okay, the last example is sounding a little more biblical than the first one, not that I'm a bible-only dude, but as I voiced earlier, I have not heard of much historically, either.

[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1359578' date='Aug 15 2007, 08:39 PM']I'm not familiar with the "angelic tongues" thing but you're right angels are pure spirit so I would think they would not speak in tongues...anyone have any clarification on that?

Also what I feel is not being understood is that there are several types of tongues:

1) One type is what the Apostles did at Pentecost where they spoke and the people understood despite the language barrier.
2) The second type is the kind for a group of people. If it is spoken to a whole group (ie. at a prayer meeting) and it will always have an interpretation by someone other than the person who spoke in tongues. If there is not an interpretation, it was not of the Lord. (Those with a gift of Discernment should pray with it first to see if it is of the Lord or not and/ or if it is meant to be shared)
3) The last form is the lowest form of the gift of Tongues and is the most common. This is when an individual prays in tongues to God. It's sor of like the Holy Spirit giving you the words when there are no more (sort of). This is a prayer "language" and just another way to vocally give praise to God.[/quote]
[quote name='gurlie4godsd' post='1361175' date='Aug 17 2007, 01:32 PM']oh and I forgot to add that the third type is also for praying over people...kinda important...oops..:)[/quote]
Okay, so where is the third part in the bible? If not, what saint has been babbling in tongues? Can one control this? If not, why not? Would God impose something on you that would impede communication with others (particularly, I'm talking about the third example)? I know for sure that number one and number two are biblical.

[quote name='Dismas' post='1361321' date='Aug 17 2007, 05:46 PM']And this is the point of contention for me.

I do not see this as a language. A form of ecstasy perhaps, but certainly not a deliberate form of communication. An unhinging of the conscious mind perhaps as well as far as I can tell...

Oh well, call me old fashioned. I'd take silence over cacophony any day.[/quote]
Call me old Fashioned too. I the most extreme I can sometimes get into is polyphony. :P, though I like my silence. :mellow:

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[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349752' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:55 AM']Some of the groups like the Neocatechumenal Way practice so many liturgical abuses. They are practically a different religion. We should be ONE UNIFIED group with the same beliefs and practices. There is but one Faith - one hope - one way to Heaven.

Catholicism looks like this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1174/1010812293_4dc4cd4218.jpg[/img]

Not this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1194/1011686366_362694a8e3.jpg[/img]

The Neocatechumenal Way, Taize, and Charismatic Communities are essentially protestant heresy.[/quote]
I'm Neocatechumenal and we did not practice any heresy, The Pope speak to us on the liturgical abuses and these were corrected. Unlike the SSPX, that they persisted in its errors and that end excomunion of his yours leaders.
It is possible to be spoken much of the Charismatics, at the moment are they those that have been able to stop in Latin America the flight to the Protestantism, even that several have returned to the true Church.

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[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349752' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:55 AM']Some of the groups like the Neocatechumenal Way practice so many liturgical abuses. They are practically a different religion. We should be ONE UNIFIED group with the same beliefs and practices. There is but one Faith - one hope - one way to Heaven.

Catholicism looks like this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1174/1010812293_4dc4cd4218.jpg[/img]

Not this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1194/1011686366_362694a8e3.jpg[/img]

The Neocatechumenal Way, Taize, and Charismatic Communities are essentially protestant heresy.[/quote]
I'm Neocatechumenal and we did not practice any heresy, The Pope speak to us on the liturgical abuses and these were corrected. Unlike the SSPX, that they persisted in its errors and that end excomunion of his yours leaders.
It is possible to be spoken much of the Charismatics, at the moment are they those that have been able to stop in Latin America the flight to the Protestantism, even that several have returned to the true Church.

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I personally think the charismatic movement can be a good thing, but only when it leads people to Christ. Otherwise, you have people who are "charismatic" only to bring attention to themselves. Let's face it some of us aren't that charismatic anyway. I think those charismatic people should keep in mind 1 Kings 19:11-14

[quote]Then the LORD said, "Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD; the LORD will be passing by." A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the LORD--but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake--but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake there was fire--but the LORD was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound. When he heard this, Elijah hid his face in his cloak and went and stood at the entrance of the cave. A voice said to him, "Elijah, why are you here?" He replied, "I have been most zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. But the Israelites have forsaken your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to the sword. I alone am left, and they seek to take my life."[/quote]

It shows that while God's presence is announced with fire, smoke, wind, and earthquake, these are only effects of His presence. He speaks to us more in the deafening stillness. I'm not saying that charismatic people are irreverent. sometimes, the best prayer is to say what we want to say and then to listen.

Edited by Old_Joe
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[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1359182' date='Aug 15 2007, 08:43 AM']This downplaying of communal prayer doesn't make any sense to me. The source and summit of our spiritual life (The Holy mass) is communal at its core. Any time we participate in any type of liturgy whether it is mass or Liturgy of the hours it is communal prayer. In fact the word liturgy means "a PUBLIC work". That is why most of our catholic prayers center around presiding and responding. What is the body of christ if it is not communal. What are the sacraments which give us life if they are not communal prayer. What about unity of husband and wife, works of mercy, and even evangelization, these are all obligations within our vocations. Even when we pray by ourselves we really aren't because we are united with other Catholics around the world and the saints and angels themselves supernaturally, even united with the God through the Holy Spririt who teaches us how to pray. There isn't one person here who has ever prayed alone, or a had "a personal prayer life" in the true sense of the phrase. We by our baptism move, live, and increase in spirituality as a body of Christ and to do it alone would be outside of the body. Just as when we sin we hurt the body of Christ, beacuse of the unity of one baptism, when we pray we strengthen the body. We have never prayed alone and will never pray alone. One basic idea of the trinity is that because we were created in its image we cannot and will not exist outside of a unity of love, which we find at the core of Gods being. Community is everything, seen or unseen.[/quote]

If you take the phrase communal prayer to mean any prayer we ever pray then of course there is no way to as you would say "downplay" it. But there is obviously a difference between physically praying in a community as communal pryaer, and communal prayer in the sense of the spiritual life and us all being one body. I don't think anyone in this thread talking about commuanl prayer outside of LohT and Mass not being necessary was using the very broad definition you just gave. Otherwise we would all be blasphemers.

In that same sense you could say that vocal prayer, meditative prayer, and contemplative prayer are all communal. At the same time we know that they are vastly different and one is even the later stages of prayer than the others. Contemplative prayer is not prayed communally as a group of people gathering together to pray in contemplation with one another...

Really I don't know what you were trying to get across with this post Stbernard as it seems to be using a very broad and inclusive defenition of communal prayer that no one else (at least that I am aware of) has been using for the rest of this thread. We've been speaking about a physical community not a spiritual community.

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gurlie4godsd

[quote name='Dismas' post='1361321' date='Aug 17 2007, 03:46 PM']And this is the point of contention for me.

I do not see this as a language. A form of ecstasy perhaps, but certainly not a deliberate form of communication. An unhinging of the conscious mind perhaps as well as far as I can tell...

Oh well, call me old fashioned. I'd take silence over cacophony any day.[/quote]


well it's not really a language thats why I put it in quotes....but it's similar. It does not have a word for word translation like a language...rather an interpretation (if its that type of tongue). It definately IS a deliberate form of communication...thats the whole point. Tongues is the only one of the gifts that the person can decide when to start and stop...you are given the gift once and then you can use it whenever you want although it takes a little bit of time to learn how to use the gift. If it wasn't deliberate you couldn't use it while praying over someone...and using tongues while praying over someone makes a big difference even though you can have effective prayer without that gift. It seems to call the Holy Spirit upon the person even more...and more Holy Spirit definately souds good to me.

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gurlie4godsd

[quote name='Old_Joe' post='1361748' date='Aug 18 2007, 12:20 AM']I personally think the charismatic movement can be a good thing, but only when it leads people to Christ. Otherwise, you have people who are "charismatic" only to bring attention to themselves. Let's face it some of us aren't that charismatic anyway. I think those charismatic people should keep in mind 1 Kings 19:11-14



It shows that while God's presence is announced with fire, smoke, wind, and earthquake, these are only effects of His presence. He speaks to us more in the deafening stillness. I'm not saying that charismatic people are irreverent. sometimes, the best prayer is to say what we want to say and then to listen.[/quote]


1 Kings 19:11-14 YES YES YES...but this is EXACTLY what the Charismatic movement is helping people come to!...The gifts point toward silence and contemplation....they help us enter that kind of prayer...for example resting in the spirit: peace, silence, resting in the love of God.

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