Charismatic Movement

[Moneybags]

"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith

[brendan1104]

St. Benedict I'm just curious, have you ever been to an SSPX chapel? I have, dozens of times. It seems that a lot of the most ardent defenders of SSPX haven't even been.

[mortify]

Not quite sure how the SSPX came up in this thread, but it's hard to say they're not Catholic when they're simply living Catholicism as it's always been lived. The excommunication if existent falls on the clergy of the SSPX, and not the faithful that attend those parishes. Though I'm not a member of the SSPX, having been explained the history of Archbishop Lefebvre in context his ordination of four bishops seemed to be more out of need to protect the faithful than an act of schism, but I'll let God and the Church decide that.

Now because certain Popes have spoken non-infallibly about the Charismatic movement, that doesn't mean the movement is really good and appropriate. My encounters with the Charismatic movement are limited to "healing masses," and deliverance prayers in "tongues," and it has left me with very odd feelings. Although there are references to "tongues" in the New Testament, there is a reason why the Holy Spirit did not retain these practices in the Liturgy, and there is a reason why Protestants turned to such practices, and unfortunately, there are reasons why Catholics adopted them. We should however consider what Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei,

==QUOTE==
[color="#0000FF"]61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man[color="#FF0000"].[Understand that the Pope is referring to the Tridentine Rite since the novus ordo was not yet in existence] [/color]

62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. [b]But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform;[/b] were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses [b]repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns [color="#FF0000"][Again, referring to the Tridentine rite] [/color]introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.[/b]

64. This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise. It likewise attempts to reinstate a series of errors which were responsible for the calling of that meeting as well as for those resulting from it, with grievous harm to souls, and which the Church, the ever watchful guardian of the "deposit of faith" committed to her charge by her divine Founder, had every right and reason to condemn.[53] [b]For perverse designs and ventures of this sort tend to paralyze and weaken that process of sanctification by which the sacred liturgy directs the sons of adoption to their Heavenly Father of their souls' salvation.[/b][/color]
==ENDQUOTE==


I'm a bit less tolerant of diversity and don't see the inherent good in it. I believe there is a proper and time tested way to perform the mass and it is more than enough to satisfy me spiritually.

Edited August 5, 2007 by mortify

[Lioness For Christ]

SSPX is heritcal... It is a grave mistake to break off from the true Church, to not regard the Pope as Peter's successor... BUT I do hope and pray they'll come back!

[brendan1104]

Lioness, you are mistaking heresy for schism. These are distinct terms.

[brendan1104]

Anyway, back on topic. As I said before, we've already and discussed and debated this topic though.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mortify' post='1350032' date='Aug 4 2007, 11:35 PM']Not quite sure how the SSPX came up in this thread, but it's hard to say they're not Catholic when they're simply living Catholicism as it's always been lived. The excommunication if existent falls on the clergy of the SSPX, and not the faithful that attend those parishes. Though I'm not a member of the SSPX, having been explained the history of Archbishop Lefebvre in context his ordination of four bishops seemed to be more out of need to protect the faithful than an act of schism, but I'll let God and the Church decide that.

Now because certain Popes have spoken non-infallibly about the Charismatic movement, that doesn't mean the movement is really good and appropriate. My encounters with the Charismatic movement are limited to "healing masses," and deliverance prayers in "tongues," and it has left me with very odd feelings. Although there are references to "tongues" in the New Testament, there is a reason why the Holy Spirit did not retain these practices in the Liturgy, and there is a reason why Protestants turned to such practices, and unfortunately, there are reasons why Catholics adopted them. We should however consider what Pope Pius XII said in Mediator Dei,

==QUOTE==
[color="#0000FF"]61. The same reasoning holds in the case of some persons who are bent on the restoration of all the ancient rites and ceremonies indiscriminately. The liturgy of the early ages is most certainly worthy of all veneration. But ancient usage must not be esteemed more suitable and proper, either in its own right or in its significance for later times and new situations, on the simple ground that it carries the savor and aroma of antiquity. The more recent liturgical rites likewise deserve reverence and respect. They, too, owe their inspiration to the Holy Spirit, who assists the Church in every age even to the consummation of the world.[52] They are equally the resources used by the majestic Spouse of Jesus Christ to promote and procure the sanctity of man[color="#FF0000"].[Understand that the Pope is referring to the Tridentine Rite since the novus ordo was not yet in existence] [/color]

62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. [b]But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform;[/b] were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer's body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.

63. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses [b]repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns [color="#FF0000"][Again, referring to the Tridentine rite] [/color]introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.[/b]

64. This way of acting bids fair to revive the exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism to which the illegal Council of Pistoia gave rise. It likewise attempts to reinstate a series of errors which were responsible for the calling of that meeting as well as for those resulting from it, with grievous harm to souls, and which the Church, the ever watchful guardian of the "deposit of faith" committed to her charge by her divine Founder, had every right and reason to condemn.[53] [b]For perverse designs and ventures of this sort tend to paralyze and weaken that process of sanctification by which the sacred liturgy directs the sons of adoption to their Heavenly Father of their souls' salvation.[/b][/color]
==ENDQUOTE==
I'm a bit less tolerant of diversity and don't see the inherent good in it. I believe there is a proper and time tested way to perform the mass and it is more than enough to satisfy me spiritually.[/quote]


Very nice. One can't wish to bring the Church up to speed with the times, because the Faith is not bound by time. One can't wish to take the Church to more ancient practice, because while laudable, the faith does develop and grow naturally, and oftentimes certain ancient practices could cause certain amounts of scandal due to extenuating circumstances. And once certainly can't wish to bring the church up to speed with times and also wish to go back to ancient ways of worship, because that is a conflict of interest.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349979' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:22 PM']"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith[/quote]

The Greek-Orthodox churches are filled with reverence and holiness too... but that doesn't make them cease to be heretics and schismatics.

Just a thought.

[Justin86]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349979' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:22 PM']"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith[/quote]
Oh, so our private interpretations of Scripture override the Pope's now? Say, doesn't this make you a Protestant?

[VeniteAdoremus]

Give me a C, give me an H, give me an AR - I - TY...

Personal comments aren't going to help us come anywhere, I think.

The Magisterium allows us a great diversity, and therefore great freedom. So you can pick the charism that suits you. We're allowed to use our minds and hearts to do that, but we can not condemn an entire group based on our own feelings. The Vatican has decided that the Charismatics are in full communion and (while I like a lot of charismatics, but their services freak me out) that means they're in full communion. We can talk about whether we feel at home there, and why or why not, but not whether they're in communion or not. That would be like talking about whether a cloudless sky at noon is blue.

The same goes for the SSPX. I'm glad that the Tridentine rite is fully "available" again, because it may help them to come back to the Church. Currently, they're not in it, the Pope has said it (quite, quite clearly), so while we can freely discuss what we think of their philosophies and practices (I think some of them are scary and some of them are awesome), we can't put up a vote whether they're ROMAN Catholic or not.

[tvu_srfan]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1350119' date='Aug 5 2007, 07:41 AM']Give me a C, give me an H, give me an AR - I - TY...

Personal comments aren't going to help us come anywhere, I think.

The Magisterium allows us a great diversity, and therefore great freedom. So you can pick the charism that suits you. We're allowed to use our minds and hearts to do that, but we can not condemn an entire group based on our own feelings. The Vatican has decided that the Charismatics are in full communion and that means they're in full communion. We can talk about whether we feel at home there, and why or why not, but not whether they're in communion or not. That would be like talking about whether a cloudless sky at noon is blue.

The same goes for the SSPX. I'm glad that the Tridentine rite is fully "available" again, because it may help them to come back to the Church. Currently, they're not in it, the Pope has said it (quite, quite clearly), so while we can freely discuss what we think of their philosophies and practices (I think some of them are scary and some of them are awesome), we can't put up a vote whether they're ROMAN Catholic or not.[/quote]

Well said.

[XIX]

Hey...if the SSPX is in full communion with the Church, then how come they are trying to get back into full communion with the Church?


Anyways, I always twitch when people say "Well the Pope is speaking fallibly, I'm allowed to disagree as much as I want to" every time they hear something they don't like. It seems to encourage an attitude of doing whatever you can get away with, and it seems to cheapen obedience to a mere rules-based Catholicism.

I believe that obedience to the Pope and the Church goes way beyond simply following the infallible teachings. Otherwise, why even bother putting out fallible teachings? At the very least, we should be extremely careful when we are disagreeing with the Vatican. At the very least, the Pope's personal opinion on a matter should carry a lot of weight in forming our opinions. In my case, it usually carries more weight than all other factors combined.

Seriously, who am I even kidding? I can't out-theology the Pope.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='XIX' post='1350178' date='Aug 5 2007, 09:42 AM']Seriously, who am I even kidding? I can't out-theology the Pope.[/quote]

Probably not in dogmatic theology because he was the head of the Inquisition, but I hope you do know that when a Pope decides to write an authoritative document on faith or morals, he consults numerous theologians and other "experts" as well as the Cardinals and the Roman Curia for their opinions.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1350217' date='Aug 5 2007, 07:16 PM']Probably not in dogmatic theology because he was the head of the Inquisition, but I hope you do know that when a Pope decides to write an authoritative document on faith or morals, he consults numerous theologians and other "experts" as well as the Cardinals and the Roman Curia for their opinions.[/quote]

Oh, I wish they were on Phatmass... Wait! Maybe they are!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1350233' date='Aug 5 2007, 11:46 AM']Oh, I wish they were on Phatmass... Wait! Maybe they are! [/quote]

Mabye they would be if they didn't have to do curia work for the Pope all day