Charismatic Movement

[mortify]

I think there is a misunderstanding of obedience here. We are not bound to everything the Pope or a Bishop says, though we should give obedience and the benefit of doubt to the Pope in non-infallible matters, unless it is wrong or harmful to our faith, then we don't have to obey. The late Holy Father John Paul ii, of good memory, saw goodness and truth in just about every religious movement on earth, so it comes to no surprise that he would see goodness in practices popular among protestants. Every Catholic however is not bound to his opinion, and I don't mean to come across the wrong way, but it's just another example of[b] diversity[/b], and that's a good thing, right?

[VeniteAdoremus]

Right

[XIX]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1350217' date='Aug 5 2007, 11:16 AM']Probably not in dogmatic theology because he was the head of the Inquisition, but I hope you do know that when a Pope decides to write an authoritative document on faith or morals, he consults numerous theologians and other "experts" as well as the Cardinals and the Roman Curia for their opinions.[/quote]
All the more reason to put stock in the fallible proclamations of the Pope, considering the immense resources he is drawing from.

Besides, I'm no theologian or expert or anything, which gives me even less reason to challenge JP2 and B16.

[quote]so it comes to no surprise that he would see goodness in practices popular among protestants.[/quote]
He didn't merely see the goodness in the Charismatic movement, he (or someone before him) granted them full communion with the Church. That is a huge difference from saying that another religion has some truth.

[quote]unless it is wrong or harmful to our faith, then we don't have to obey.[/quote]
But how is the world can a simple lay person be expected to determine what is wrong and harmful to the faith? I would certainly hope that I can trust the Vicar of Christ to avoid teachings that are harmful to the Catholic faith. :

[Ora et Labora]

I don't see anything wrong with charism. Um, I'm not a "clap your hands, hold each others hands and start waving you arms around during Mass" type of person...but hey! Outside of Mass...heck! I LOVE guitars and praises!! I just think there should be more reverence in Mass itself.

Earlier on, I would come onto PM to argue with Charismatics, but I have decided, it doesn't really help to take a strong side, but to just worry about my own soul, and to know what Vatican II teaches. I think us Catholics take sides way too much. But, that's just me.

Ones who love the TLM (like me) are trying to work for the Church, and even though Charism in Mass isn't my thing, I know many people who love it, and who are trying to help the Church as well! I decided to stop taking sides, and to stop arguing about it for nothing, unless others ask me about my personal opinion.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Ora et Labora

[XIX]

There is way too much side-taking in the Church. I'm guilty of it too.

[Seven77]

the sad. false dichotomies are always sad. watch me go to the reverent Latin Mass and Charismatic prayer group in the same week while peeps waste words.

[XIX]

Ha, nice one. I had P&W on Monday and Night of Reparations on Friday.

Of course do think it's important to point out that the SSPX are in schism, when that comes up.

[Moneybags]

Look up St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary from Northern Minnesota. It is a wonderful website. The seminary looks holy - it looks Catholic. Plus, unlike Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc., the SSPX does not teach heresy. They are Catholic.

Honestly, I support the canonization of Marcel Lefebvre.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1350473' date='Aug 5 2007, 03:13 PM']Look up St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary from Northern Minnesota. It is a wonderful website. The seminary looks holy - it looks Catholic. Plus, unlike Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc., the SSPX does not teach heresy. They are Catholic.

Honestly, I support the canonization of Marcel Lefebvre.[/quote]

So why aren't you entering into a Fraternity of St. Peter or Institute of Christ the King seminary?

[LouisvilleFan]

I will simply add that I know plenty of high school/young adult aged Catholics who are very devout and faithful to the Church who are Charismatic. I also know plenty of people who are Traditionalist and very devout and faithful to the Church. Unfortunately, in Louisville there isn't much crossover between the two since the Charismatic Movement here seems mostly restricted to the Baby Boomer generation, some of whom teach things that aren't in line with the Church.

As for me, between the tongues on one side and the Latin on the other, neither one of them is intelligible. I'm just gonna be English-speaking Catholic and not worry about everybody else. I became Catholic because of the joy I experienced among other Catholics. It would be awesome of the same were true on the Internet... imagine if a Protestant from Relevant Magazine dropped by here and noticed that among our disagreements, we didn't get personal or argue immaturely as tends to happen on Relevant (and most message boards). But I guess we aren't any different.

Edited August 5, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1349255' date='Aug 3 2007, 11:29 PM']As with all other controversial topics, we've already discussed and debated the charismatic movement many times. Just do a search. May the Holy Spirit truly be your guide, and never doubt your [i]sensus Catholicus[/i]. No doubt that is what's led you to ask these questions. [/quote]


I hate it when people do this. A new person comes on the forum and wants to talk about a topic of interest to them, and instead people say "we've already discussed it". This person has individual concerns and beliefs and should be given the same attention people in the past were. Talk to them and discuss.

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349752' date='Aug 4 2007, 06:55 PM']Some of the groups like the Neocatechumenal Way practice so many liturgical abuses. They are practically a different religion. We should be ONE UNIFIED group with the same beliefs and practices. There is but one Faith - one hope - one way to Heaven.

Catholicism looks like this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1174/1010812293_4dc4cd4218.jpg[/img]

Not this:

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1194/1011686366_362694a8e3.jpg[/img]

The Neocatechumenal Way, Taize, and Charismatic Communities are essentially protestant heresy.[/quote]

HAHA you're kidding right? Unfortunately not...

YOU cannot say what Catholicism should look like. You lose that right when you contradict the Holy See. The HUGE problem with the SSPX is that they recognize no authority. You claim them to be Catholic but they are more protestant than some protestants today simply because [i]in full knowledge[/i] they broke away from the pope and did their own thing. They DEFIED the ONE AUTHORITY given to the Earth by Jesus Christ. For SSPX members to claim to be more Catholic than charismatic Catholics in union with Rome is one of the most hypocritical and evil things a person can say. In the same breath they are denying Jesus' authority (he placed the pope as the head of the Church) and also claiming to have Jesus' authority. Essentially they are playing pope and making a mockery of anything Catholic.


[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349808' date='Aug 4 2007, 07:53 PM']Of course, let's attack the SSPX but leave the Charistmatics alone!!! One of the two looks Catholic, looks holy, and looks reverent. The other - Charismatics - do not.

I'd support and join the SSPX in a second over a charismatic group.

Note: Top image is of Holy Trinity German Church from Boston.[/quote]

You are looking at only the externals and not at what it really means to be Catholic. Read the Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Oh I forgot SSPX don't recognize his authority....

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349890' date='Aug 4 2007, 09:58 PM']The SSPX is not schismatic. They are Catholic.[/quote]

Catholics don't blatantly defy the pope. End of story.

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1349979' date='Aug 4 2007, 11:22 PM']"By their fruits you shall know them"

The SSPX chapels are filled with reverence and holiness. The Charistmatic places are filled with dissent and heretical beliefs. Look at the Faith in both places - the SSPX has the Faith[/quote]

The fruits of the SSPX are discord and disobediance.


[quote name='brendan1104' post='1350036' date='Aug 5 2007, 12:41 AM']Anyway, back on topic. As I said before, we've already and discussed and debated this topic though. [/quote]

Good return to the real topic of this thread, however it does deserve as much attention as past threads. Just because we talked about this once upon a time doesn't mean we shouldn't do so again...People's beliefs and opinions are not usually static. Also there are new people here since the last topic and they shoudl be allowed to bring their own concerns.


[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1350473' date='Aug 5 2007, 04:13 PM']Look up St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary from Northern Minnesota. It is a wonderful website. The seminary looks holy - it looks Catholic. Plus, unlike Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc., the SSPX does not teach heresy. They are Catholic.

Honestly, I support the canonization of Marcel Lefebvre.[/quote]

*Raises eyebrows*. You'd recognize the authority of the pope to ordain Lefebvre? Why didn't Lefebvre recognize the authority of the pope to change the form of the Mass?

[Moneybags]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1350531' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:17 PM']The fruits of the SSPX are discord and disobediance.[/quote]

NO. The fruits are Holiness and virtue. The SSPX and Marcel Lefebvre were/are obedient to Jesus Christ and the decree of St. Pius V. They are Catholic! Read from the website of the sspx. Read the letter to Confused Catholics. Everyone, please do this.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1350531' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:17 PM']*Raises eyebrows*. You'd recognize the authority of the pope to ordain Lefebvre? Why didn't Lefebvre recognize the authority of the pope to change the form of the Mass?[/quote]

Of course the SSPX recognizes the authority of the Pope. Please don't confuse them with sedevecantists. They have the photo of the Pope on their webpage. More importantly, they pray for him regularly and accept him, Benedict XVI, as the Vicar of Jesus Christ.

And, the Pope simply can not change what Pius V declared as the Mass. Read his document and see that the Mass can not be changed.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1350539' date='Aug 5 2007, 06:25 PM']NO. The fruits are Holiness and virtue. The SSPX and Marcel Lefebvre were/are obedient to Jesus Christ and the decree of St. Pius V. They are Catholic! Read from the website of the sspx. Read the letter to Confused Catholics. Everyone, please do this.[/quote]

This is why it's so bad. They are not obediant to the current vicar of Christ, Pope Benedict XVI. Therefore they are not obediant to Christ himself. They 'confuse' Catholics and tempt them away from the true Church.

I will now return to the true topic and if you'd like to discuss this in more detail start a thread about it.

[aalpha1989]

Now for my actual opinion regarding charismatics.

Of course they are members of the Catholic church *glares at certain members of the phorum*!

I believe that Charismatic praise is a legitimate form of worship [i]outside[/i] of the Mass. I pretty much agree with Ora.

I also believe that it is extremely easy to get carried away with the feelings involved in charismatic prayer and to begin to rely on them. It is easy to pray only when one feels like it or when one has an adrenaline rush. It is very important to keep the crucifix in sight and remember that prayer is essential even when it is hard to pray and when one doesnt feel like it. I believe much caution is called for when praying charismatically, but it is not evil or bad. It is quite the opposite.