aalpha1989 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 [quote name='Slappo' post='1352864' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:33 PM']Scardella, In speaking of the depth of the Charismatic movement I wasn't saying that it had no depth, but compared to the depth of prayer we are CALLED to reach (the divine union) it has no depth. Really my point in that was you can't stop at praise and worship, praying in tongues, and slain in the spirit. We must go much further than this. Sorry if that confused you. It would be like comparing praise and worship to the Holy Mass, obviously mass is incredibly more powerful no matter how good the praise and worship is. The depth of contemplative prayer and mysticism is incredibly more than that of the Charismatic movement. Honestly, the Charismatic movement changed my life and I would not be the Catholic I am today without it. To be honest a second time, with the knowledge and understanding I've come to of prayer from reading the lives of the saints, I think I need to be moving past the charismatic movement and instead of spending my time in praise and worship, spend it in adoration practicing meditation. I think the Charismatic movement is a good go between, it is amazing for people just getting off the rocks, and it leads one to deeper prayer, but it is not deeper prayer in and of itself. It leads one into meditation, and can possibly open one up to contemplative graces, but charismatic prayer is not contemplative in and of itself. We are actually instructed by the Saints to pray less vocal prayer when we reach contemplation, and instead leave our prayer time more open to the contemplative graces God desires to give us. Charismatic prayer is *mainly* vocal prayer, and I do have to agree that it does definitely involve some meditative prayer (repeating the name of Jesus over and over, or the words "Jesus I love you" could definitely be meditative), but very rarely would one be open to recieveing contemplative graces while participating in Charismatic prayer. Later stages of contemplation are almost purely contemplation and very little vocal or meditative prayer. St. Teresa talks to her nuns about how even the Liturgy of the Hours can lead them into contemplation, and so in theory praise and worship could lead someone to contemplation, but I don't think that it would be the desired way to be open to the graces of contemplation. I can't speak too much from experience on contemplation because I don't think I have entered into contemplative graces. So possibly I'm wrong, but from the writings of the saints I would think I'm pretty close. God bless, Marcus[/quote] I agree with your theories, but I have one objection to raise. Who says that charismatic prayer is the only type of prayer you can pray? I've prayed charismatically....I do so very rarely though (indeed, I've only done it once or twice...). Most of my prayer is meditating on Josemaria Escriva, the Bible, the Liturgy of the Hours... Perhaps this was your point but I'm going to say it anyway. You are right that charismatic prayer on its own cannot bring us to the deepest level of prayer that we are called to. However, charismatic prayer is a good way to pray. There are different ways to pray and we are not called to a single form of prayer. We are free to use different types in different situations. Charismatic prayer in some situations (youth group or Steubenville conferences, for example) is extremely appropriate simply because that is what the prayer leader is leading you to. In other situations (in your own home, at Mass, during Liturgy of the Hours) completely different types of prayer are called for. By the way I believe that praying charismatically during a Mass can diminish the amount of grace you receive. It definitely blurs the line between the ultimate prayer and sacrifice of the Mass and other forms of prayer such as praise and worship. It fails to recognize just how holy and sacred the Mass is, and may even diminish belief in the real presence. I say this because if praise and worship and Mass are the same, then there is nothing different. You are praying the same way...Mass is just a different setting. Not a different prayer. This is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 [quote name='Slappo' post='1352864' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:33 PM']In speaking of the depth of the Charismatic movement I wasn't saying that it had no depth, but compared to the depth of prayer we are CALLED to reach (the divine union) it has no depth. Really my point in that was you can't stop at praise and worship, praying in tongues, and slain in the spirit. We must go much further than this. Sorry if that confused you.[/quote] No, I understand what you're saying and disagree with your understanding of it. You're trying to equate the external trappings of the spirituality with the spirituality itself. While I agree that praise and worship, etc. is not the height of prayer, for those who are suited to that style of prayer, it is conducive to it. In the same way, Carmelite spirituality (which I see you're drawing heavily upon) is conducive to divine union for those suited to it. However, if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, divine union begets a totally individualized spirituality. In addition, someone who is in the state of divine union does not forfeit other prayer completely, but the other prayer (say, a rosary for instance) complements and participates in the divine union. It does not make Mass unnecessary. Following any given spiritual tradition is merely one way within the confines of Catholicism that draws you towards divine union. [quote]I think the Charismatic movement is a good go between, it is amazing for people just getting off the rocks, and it leads one to deeper prayer, but it is not deeper prayer in and of itself.[/quote] Now, I've been involved with the Charismatic movement almost 10 years. I think you're underestimating it. I know many people who've found it fruitful for over twenty. I'd be willing to bet that a number of them (and I'm thinking at least of a couple specifically) are well into contemplative prayer. [quote]St. Teresa talks to her nuns about how even the Liturgy of the Hours can lead them into contemplation, and so in theory praise and worship could lead someone to contemplation, [b]but I don't think that it would be the desired way to be open to the graces of contemplation.[/b] I can't speak too much from experience on contemplation because I don't think I have entered into contemplative graces. So possibly I'm wrong, but from the writings of the saints I would think I'm pretty close.[/quote] You definitely would have to back this statement up... If it leads you to contemplation, that means that God's using it to lead you deeper into prayer and mystical union with Him. As an aside, this sounds like the misunderstood version of the argument that the priesthood is an objectively higher calling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 The thing about Carmelite spirituality is that it isn't just Carmelite. In truth, Carmelite spirituality is the spirituality of the Church. Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the Church, not just Carmelites. Every Christian is called to contemplative prayer, Carmelites charism is contemplative prayer. Divine union isn't meant for some. ALL are called to divine union. If you look back on Fire Within, this point is made very clearly. It isn't "All that are interested" or "All that like the spirituality of Carmelites" its "All Christians". Although Catholicism is very open and inclusive of different spiritualities and methods of prayer, they are all to lead to divine union, which is only reached through the heights of contemplation. I may be mistaken in saying that charismatic prayer is not the desired way to reach contemplative graces. I can't back that up at this time and don't have the time to research it to attempt to back it up, but from my understanding, especially when first recieving contemplative graces, we should try to quiet our soul and let God speak to us rather than speaking to Him. Also, a side note: Just because God can lead us to contemplative graces through charismatic prayer, does not mean that it is the most desired way to reach it. God can lead us to great heights of holiness in a vocation which He didn't call us to (a married person who didn't discern and was called to priesthood/religious life) but that does not mean that it is the most desired way for Him to lead us to sanctity. My experience with the Charismatic movement may be slightly tainted. A lot of charismatic mass type stuff, raising hands at mass, praise and worship type guitar music, [u]free praise during the Great Amen[/u]... so I have had bad experiences and therefore shy away from it (which will be hard going back to Steubie next year). My parish here is a very charismatic parish. We have a charismatic deacon and durning communion services he asks us to gather around the altar and hold hands for the our father and then recieve communion (definitely not allowed at mass... not sure about the legistics of communion services, but I don't like it thats for sure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary-Kathryn Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I can only draw from my personal background and experience. I was raised in the deep south. I was surrounded by tent revivals, denominations that believed in speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, healing services, and so on. I then converted to Catholicism 18 years ago. As I tell people, I didn't become Catholic to act protestant. What I had, didn't measure up. I simply want to be a Catholic, not a new mixture of protestant deep south-Catholic practices. I do find it sad that Catholics run around trying to find satisfaction in other things when the Eucharist is RIGHT THERE. Others may enjoy it, find ways to let it be a boost in their lives, but I hope they watch this slippery slope in their lives. My mother was a Pentecostal until she passed on a few years ago. {By the way she was such a lovely soul and had no problem with my conversion}. I was shocked at the number of ex-Catholics that were members of her church. In my mind, It was no coincidence that their priest had been all in favor of charismatic practices in his parish. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Mary-Kathryn' post='1352987' date='Aug 8 2007, 03:25 PM']As I tell people, I didn't become Catholic to act protestant. What I had, didn't measure up. I simply want to be a Catholic, not a new mixture of protestant deep south-Catholic practices.[/quote] What, then, does it mean to be Catholic? Obviously some "Protestant" practices are acceptable, so where do we draw the line between those that are and those that aren't? What makes exercising the Charismatic gifts different from having a Bible study or holding a revival/mission? To me, the Catholic faith enables us to do these different things, if we want, while remaining grounded in the sacramental life. I truly appreciate my Evangelical background (even hesitate to say I "converted," but it's the easiest word to use), so becoming Catholic wasn't so much an end to acting Evangelical, but the fulfillment of those things. [quote name='Mary-Kathryn' post='1352987' date='Aug 8 2007, 03:25 PM']I was shocked at the number of ex-Catholics that were members of her church. In my mind, It was no coincidence that their priest had been all in favor of charismatic practices in his parish.[/quote] On the flip side of that, there were a lot of ex-Catholics at my old Baptist church and some of them believed there was no life in the Catholic Church. They were bored and didn't receive good instruction from either their parents, Catholic schools, or priests, and so they left. Can't win either way. Edited August 8, 2007 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) Just wanted to add my two cents here: 1) I have general feelings of good will to charismatics. I came back to the faith through a charismatic group, and still pray with a group of them [url="http://www.spiritandtruthnj.org/"]every friday night in NJ[/url], even though I now attend a parish that exclusively celebrates the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i], and believe it kicks the pants off the [i]Novus Ordo[/i]. 2) There are some problems I have with the charismatic attitude towards many things, and their naming convention. First -- baptism in the spirit. That's a really, really bad name. Especially since we all say, every week at mass that w [i]Confiteor unum baptisma[/i]. I've been "baptized in the spirit". I've concluded that it is... something. Most charismatics, when they describe it, describe the sacrament of confirmation, which it is not. What they call a lot of things -- 'tongues', 'prophesy', etc. -- they're frankly using words that we associate with one thing, and apply them to something different. 3) There are some charismatic groups -- not all, but some -- that wind up going off the deep end, and contradicting church teaching, thinking that since they are "guided by the Spirit" and their pastor/bishop/whoever is not, they are right, and everyone else is wrong. These are often people who are not well catechized, and do not have the guidance of a priest to steer them back when they get a bit wacky. 4) Like most renewal movements in the church, there's a number of people in the charismatic movement that believe that if you aren't part of the movement, you aren't really Catholic. I've seen this in charismatics, trads, 3rd-world missionaries, abortion mill protesters, etc. Finally, just because something is recognized and endorsed by the Vatican, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Like Pope Pius XI trying to get Catholics out of politics, Pope Paul VI's allowing communion in the hand, Pope JPII's allowance of the whole Assisi mess. The popes in question supported these things, and broke no doctrine in doing so, but I, and many other Catholics believe they were mistakes. And this is mild compared to the actions of popes in previous centuries. Pope Steven VII, for instance, exhumed the corpse of a former Pope, found the corpse guilty of something, and his corpse was burned and dragged into the tiber. This is not to say I think the Charismatic renewal is a mistake; far from it. The neocatechumens... yeah, they're bad news. They're leader wants to remove more parts of the mass (the [i]Orate fratres[/i], the [i]confeteor[/i], the [i]Domine non sum dignus[/i], Eucharistic prayer #1, etc.) and is constantly at odds with Cardinal Arinze. Edited August 8, 2007 by adt6247 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 [quote name='Slappo' post='1352984' date='Aug 8 2007, 02:19 PM']The thing about Carmelite spirituality is that it isn't just Carmelite. In truth, Carmelite spirituality is the spirituality of the Church. Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the Church, not just Carmelites. Every Christian is called to contemplative prayer, Carmelites charism is contemplative prayer. Divine union isn't meant for some. ALL are called to divine union. If you look back on Fire Within, this point is made very clearly. It isn't "All that are interested" or "All that like the spirituality of Carmelites" its "All Christians".[/quote] I agree that all are meant to eventually reach divine union. However, not all expressions of divine union are sitting in a chapel in ecstatic personal prayer. I believe that's mentioned in Fire Within too... Even John of the Cross ate with his fellow Carmelites. He didn't stop the divine union to take a pee. He brought Christ into the bathroom with him. He didn't stop the divine union to go to Mass where he would be brought into divine union again through the Mass. Not all are called to the cloister, and if all are called to divine union, then divine union, by necessity, needs to be available to butchers, bakers and candlestick makers too. Charismatic is a spirituality, and its purpose is to bring people into union with Christ through the Holy Spirit. I don't see how that's at odds with contemplative prayer. Personal prayer needs to be balanced with corporate prayer. The Charismatic movement, by definition, primarily addresses corporate prayer. That in no way makes it less valid or inferior or only a jumping off point. In the same way, a Franciscan spirituality emphasizes poverty, but that does not encompass the entirety of a Franciscan's prayer life (or life in general). Spiritualities are emphases and primary themes within one's personal spiritual life. That is, they are not reductionist or pigeon-holing or cookie cutting one's spiritual life. [quote]My experience with the Charismatic movement may be slightly tainted. A lot of charismatic mass type stuff, raising hands at mass, praise and worship type guitar music, [u]free praise during the Great Amen[/u]... so I have had bad experiences and therefore shy away from it (which will be hard going back to Steubie next year). My parish here is a very charismatic parish. [b]We have a charismatic deacon and durning communion services he asks us to gather around the altar and hold hands for the our father and then recieve communion (definitely not allowed at mass...[/b] not sure about the legistics of communion services, but I don't like it thats for sure).[/quote] I don't see the problem w/ anything but the bolded portion. I know that anyone not ordained in the sanctuary is not allowed according to the GIRM... [quote name='Mary-Kathryn' post='1352987' date='Aug 8 2007, 02:25 PM']I can only draw from my personal background and experience. I was raised in the deep south. I was surrounded by tent revivals, denominations that believed in speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, healing services, and so on. I then converted to Catholicism 18 years ago. As I tell people, I didn't become Catholic to act protestant. What I had, didn't measure up. I simply want to be a Catholic, not a new mixture of protestant deep south-Catholic practices. I do find it sad that Catholics run around trying to find satisfaction in other things when the Eucharist is RIGHT THERE. Others may enjoy it, find ways to let it be a boost in their lives, but I hope they watch this slippery slope in their lives. My mother was a Pentecostal until she passed on a few years ago. {By the way she was such a lovely soul and had no problem with my conversion}. I was shocked at the number of ex-Catholics that were members of her church. In my mind, It was no coincidence that their priest had been all in favor of charismatic practices in his parish. Just my opinion[/quote] Umm... my praise and worship, tongues, etc. is explicitly ordered towards adoring the Eucharist during Mass. Should not the Spirit take especial joy in moving among us when we are united to Jesus' Body Blood Soul and Divinity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 [quote]2) There are some problems I have with the charismatic attitude towards many things, and their naming convention. First -- baptism in the spirit. That's a really, really bad name. Especially since we all say, every week at mass that w Confiteor unum baptisma. I've been "baptized in the spirit". I've concluded that it is... something. Most charismatics, when they describe it, describe the sacrament of confirmation, which it is not. What they call a lot of things -- 'tongues', 'prophesy', etc. -- they're frankly using words that we associate with one thing, and apply them to something different.[/quote] I've seen progress with this at least in the groups I keep in contact with. There's been plenty of movement towards changing "slain in the spirit" to "resting in the spirit" which is a more accurate description. The Born in the Spirit retreats (@ Steubie) I recall would not say baptism in the HS for this reason too... Ultimately, it seems that this is an issue with what it's referred to, not with the action itself. BTW, Every time I've been on a retreat, seminar, etc. where they would pray over people for "baptism in the spirit", they've carefully explained that it is to "stir up" or activate gifts already present via baptism, and not competitive with baptism proper nor necessary for salvation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 You said earlier (i havn't yet figured out the quote thing very well) "While I agree that praise and worship, etc. is not the height of prayer, for those who are suited to that style of prayer, it is conducive to it. In the same way, Carmelite spirituality (which I see you're drawing heavily upon) is conducive to divine union for those suited to it" That is what I meant in saying that Carmelite spirituality is not just Carmelite, but all of Christianity. Charismatic prayer is not for everyone, contemplative prayer is. [quote name='scardella' post='1353041' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:58 PM']I agree that all are meant to eventually reach divine union. However, not all expressions of divine union are sitting in a chapel in ecstatic personal prayer. I believe that's mentioned in Fire Within too... Even John of the Cross ate with his fellow Carmelites. He didn't stop the divine union to take a pee. He brought Christ into the bathroom with him. He didn't stop the divine union to go to Mass where he would be brought into divine union again through the Mass. Not all are called to the cloister, and if all are called to divine union, then divine union, by necessity, needs to be available to butchers, bakers and candlestick makers too.[/quote] In no way did I mean to say that divine union can only be expressed through sitting in a chapel. It's a life not a prayer, that wouldn't make sense. Not quite sure where you got this. [quote name='scardella' post='1353041' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:58 PM']Charismatic is a spirituality, and its purpose is to bring people into union with Christ through the Holy Spirit. I don't see how that's at odds with contemplative prayer. Personal prayer needs to be balanced with corporate prayer. The Charismatic movement, by definition, primarily addresses corporate prayer. That in no way makes it less valid or inferior or only a jumping off point.[/quote] The balance weighs very differently depending on how advanced one is. One who is in say the 6th mansion does not need to attend praise and worship, group rosaries or any of the such. If they are religious, they will need to participate in Liturgy of the Hours (by canon law) either in a group, or alone, daily mass (if they are a priest, this could even be said privately), and really... thats about all the communal prayer they would need to balance their prayer life. That's the thing about contemplation, it is "being alone with God". Not being in a community with God. This is due to the depth of prayer that contemplation is. Although it is true that communal prayer can lead someone at a stage of contemplating into contemplative graces, it is not necessary. There really doesn't need to be much of a balance. If I were recieving contemplative graces, I would much rather be at silent adoration than praise and worship or a group rosary. [quote name='scardella' post='1353041' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:58 PM']I don't see the problem w/ anything but the bolded portion. I know that anyone not ordained in the sanctuary is not allowed according to the GIRM... Umm... my praise and worship, tongues, etc. is explicitly ordered towards adoring the Eucharist during Mass. Should not the Spirit take especial joy in moving among us when we are united to Jesus' Body Blood Soul and Divinity?[/quote] Free praise at mass? That would be problematic. All songs sung at mass must first be approved by a group of bishops... how can one approve free praise as it has no set lyrics? Especially at the climax of the mass, that is not the time for praise and worship. Praise and worship does not = mass. At mass we are at calvalry, the songs we sing should be appropriate for the atmosphere we are in. Also, if you read some of the stuff Cardinal Arinze has said than you'll know that he says "I will not say no guitars never..." but basically that they should be on rare special occasions, not every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1352777' date='Aug 8 2007, 10:12 AM']Praise and worship, prayer tongues, etc. (the exterior trappings) are not necessary by any means. In the sense of being a witness, building up the Body of Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit in our lives, being open to any spiritual gifts that we may have (whether tagged as charismatic or not), and having a real relationship with Jesus Christ, yes, it is absolutely necessary to be charismatic. For one "non-Charismatic" but actually charismatic in truth instance, you could certainly say that Dominicans are charismatic in that they practice the charism of preaching the Gospel.[/quote] I do not believe it is necessary to be Charismatic if one wanted to be led by the Holy Spirit and to be built up by the Body of Christ. But, maybe I'm not talking about the same kind of charismatic movement? If you're saying that one has to go to Charismatic meetings, seminars or be in a charismatic group, listen to up-beat music, and wave your hands around to receive the abocv ^^...if that's what you're saying, I disagree. That is rubbish!! The Charismatic movement hasn't been around for very long, and many (most) Saints didn't need to do what I just stated to be led by the Holy Spirit. One has to be JOYFUL in the Catholic Faith, and not see things in black and white, but not be Charismatic. In fact, I am led by the Holy Spirit in silence, most of the time...in the silence of Adoration, or the silence of the Mass... [quote name='Slappo' post='1352864' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:33 PM']Scardella, I think the Charismatic movement is a good go between, it is amazing for people just getting off the rocks, and it leads one to deeper prayer, but it is not deeper prayer in and of itself. It leads one into meditation, and can possibly open one up to contemplative graces, but charismatic prayer is not contemplative in and of itself. We are actually instructed by the Saints to pray less vocal prayer when we reach contemplation, and instead leave our prayer time more open to the contemplative graces God desires to give us. Charismatic prayer is *mainly* vocal prayer, and I do have to agree that it does definitely involve some meditative prayer (repeating the name of Jesus over and over, or the words "Jesus I love you" could definitely be meditative), but very rarely would one be open to recieveing contemplative graces while participating in Charismatic prayer. Later stages of contemplation are almost purely contemplation and very little vocal or meditative prayer.[/quote] this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say about my own personal opinion. He said it better. [quote name='aalpha1989' post='1352884' date='Aug 8 2007, 12:44 PM']By the way I believe that praying charismatically during a Mass can diminish the amount of grace you receive. It definitely blurs the line between the ultimate prayer and sacrifice of the Mass and other forms of prayer such as praise and worship. It fails to recognize just how holy and sacred the Mass is, and may even diminish belief in the real presence. I say this because if praise and worship and Mass are the same, then there is nothing different. You are praying the same way...Mass is just a different setting. Not a different prayer. This is wrong.[/quote] Again, I agree. As I said before, it is all well and good, OUTSIDE of Mass. [quote name='scardella' post='1353060' date='Aug 8 2007, 04:26 PM']I've seen progress with this at least in the groups I keep in contact with. There's been plenty of movement towards changing "slain in the spirit" to "resting in the spirit" which is a more accurate description. The Born in the Spirit retreats (@ Steubie) I recall would not say baptism in the HS for this reason too... Ultimately, it seems that this is an issue with what it's referred to, not with the action itself. BTW, Every time I've been on a retreat, seminar, etc. where they would pray over people for "baptism in the spirit", they've carefully explained that it is to "stir up" or activate gifts already present via baptism, and not competitive with baptism proper nor necessary for salvation...[/quote] Why in the heck would one need to be reminded of their Baptism??! This is very confusing to me...could someone explain?? It doesn't seem necessary...at all! It sounds like people do this, just to make themselves feel good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 [quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1353112' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:59 PM']I do not believe it is necessary to be Charismatic if one wanted to be led by the Holy Spirit and to be built up by the Body of Christ. But, maybe I'm not talking about the same kind of charismatic movement? If you're saying that one has to go to Charismatic meetings, seminars or be in a charismatic group, listen to up-beat music, and wave your hands around to receive the abocv ^^...if that's what you're saying, I disagree. That is rubbish!! The Charismatic movement hasn't been around for very long, and many (most) Saints didn't need to do what I just stated to be led by the Holy Spirit. One has to be JOYFUL in the Catholic Faith, and not see things in black and white, but not be Charismatic. In fact, I am led by the Holy Spirit in silence, most of the time...in the silence of Adoration, or the silence of the Mass... this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say about my own personal opinion. He said it better. Again, I agree. As I said before, it is all well and good, O UTSIDE of Mass. Why in the heck would one need to be reminded of their Baptism??! This is very confusing to me...could someone explain?? It doesn't seem necessary...at all! It sounds like people do this, just to make themselves feel good. [/quote] Wow...you really misunderstand. To be charismatic is not something one does in order to feel the Holy Spirit. Charisms are freely given by the Holy Spirit to build up the Body of Christ. He blows as he will. Think of it as supplemental. You don't need to be reminded of your baptism? Why do you use Holy water and make the Sign of the Cross? Have you ever made the De Montfort Consecration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Mary-Kathryn' post='1352987' date='Aug 8 2007, 02:25 PM']I can only draw from my personal background and experience. I was raised in the deep south. I was surrounded by tent revivals, denominations that believed in speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, healing services, and so on. I then converted to Catholicism 18 years ago. As I tell people, I didn't become Catholic to act protestant. What I had, didn't measure up. I simply want to be a Catholic, not a new mixture of protestant deep south-Catholic practices. I do find it sad that Catholics run around trying to find satisfaction in other things when the Eucharist is RIGHT THERE. Others may enjoy it, find ways to let it be a boost in their lives, but I hope they watch this slippery slope in their lives. My mother was a Pentecostal until she passed on a few years ago. {By the way she was such a lovely soul and had no problem with my conversion}. I was shocked at the number of ex-Catholics that were members of her church. In my mind, It was no coincidence that their priest had been all in favor of charismatic practices in his parish. Just my opinion[/quote] I like your opinion. I always seem to raise my eyes at how pentecostal-like this movement seems... it's probably as recent as the sect. [quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1353112' date='Aug 8 2007, 06:59 PM']I do not believe it is necessary to be Charismatic if one wanted to be led by the Holy Spirit and to be built up by the Body of Christ. But, maybe I'm not talking about the same kind of charismatic movement? If you're saying that one has to go to Charismatic meetings, seminars or be in a charismatic group, listen to up-beat music, and wave your hands around to receive the abocv ^^...if that's what you're saying, I disagree. That is rubbish!! The Charismatic movement hasn't been around for very long, and many (most) Saints didn't need to do what I just stated to be led by the Holy Spirit. One has to be JOYFUL in the Catholic Faith, and not see things in black and white, but not be Charismatic. In fact, I am led by the Holy Spirit in silence, most of the time...in the silence of Adoration, or the silence of the Mass... this is EXACTLY what I was trying to say about my own personal opinion. He said it better. Again, I agree. As I said before, it is all well and good, OUTSIDE of Mass. Why in the heck would one need to be reminded of their Baptism??! This is very confusing to me...could someone explain?? It doesn't seem necessary...at all! It sounds like people do this, just to make themselves feel good. [/quote] Great post. I don't think Joan of Arc or St Martin of Tours would have got out a geetar and started swaying back and fourth in "praise". Heck, both of them spent times in silent prayer... (and other times battle... but that's beside the point). Heck, St Martin wanted to be ALONE but the people made him a bishop... just goes to show how much silence has been treasured throughout the 2000 years. Btw, I have been to one charismatic mass. It was sorta freaky... the priest apparently consecrated wine in the cruets, then drained the vessels and handed them to the altar servers (who told me after that they--and the semenarians too--were freaked out about that) and there was humming after the consecration of each species... one of them was "peace is flowing like a river" :shudders:, and there were extra moments of blessing eachother's forehead, etc. The interesting part about this is I was in the choir, and we were singing TRADITIONAL music, like Hans Leo Hassler's [i]Missa Secunda[/i] and others. I think the priest cut us off once for one of the mass parts, but otherwise, it was good musically. Then after the priest had the "slaying in the spirit" thing (he had the charism of being able to cause that when praying over people). I went to confession instead, though I was told it was a great feeling... you completely relax and feel so happy. Anywho people were dropping like flies... yeah, so that's my experience. I think there was more, but I'll recall it later... but yeah, I think it's a good go-between too. As long as the happy clappy stuff stays OUTSIDE of mass, and proper reverence and adoration is given to the Eucharist. Edited August 9, 2007 by Sacred Music Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 [quote name='Slappo' post='1353079' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:36 PM']The balance weighs very differently depending on how advanced one is. One who is in say the 6th mansion does not need to attend praise and worship, group rosaries or any of the such. If they are religious, they will need to participate in Liturgy of the Hours (by canon law) either in a group, or alone, daily mass (if they are a priest, this could even be said privately), and really... thats about all the communal prayer they would need to balance their prayer life. [b]That's the thing about contemplation, it is "being alone with God". Not being in a community with God.[/b] This is due to the depth of prayer that contemplation is.[/quote] Sorry... just because you're in the midst of the 5th, 6th, whatever mansion, you still need communal prayer. I have big issues with what I've bolded. If "being alone with God" were all advanced contemplatives needed, they'd all go into hermitage once they've gone to that state. Theresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, and John of the Cross all lived communally. That's not an accident. It's quite necessary to have community if for no other reason than humility. When you're by yourself, it's quite easy to go off the deep end. If you'd notice, Jesus' only recorded temptations were when he was alone. [quote]Free praise at mass? That would be problematic. All songs sung at mass must first be approved by a group of bishops... how can one approve free praise as it has no set lyrics? Especially at the climax of the mass, that is not the time for praise and worship. Praise and worship does not = mass. At mass we are at calvalry, the songs we sing should be appropriate for the atmosphere we are in. Also, if you read some of the stuff Cardinal Arinze has said than you'll know that he says "I will not say no guitars never..." but basically that they should be on rare special occasions, not every week.[/quote] I'm not getting into another guitars in liturgy argument. Unless the Magisterium says "no guitars" explicitly, the GIRM allows for instruments "suitable for worship" or similar, I'm assuming that guitars can be made suitable for worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 [quote name='Seven77' post='1353304' date='Aug 8 2007, 10:21 PM']Wow...you really misunderstand. To be charismatic is not something one does in order to feel the Holy Spirit. Charisms are freely given by the Holy Spirit to build up the Body of Christ. He blows as he will. Think of it as supplemental. You don't need to be reminded of your baptism? Why do you use Holy water and make the Sign of the Cross? Have you ever made the De Montfort Consecration?[/quote] I meant, by practically re-doing it...and as you can see but misunderstood, I ASKED about that! I didn't pretend to know what I was talking about... hence the: [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1353317' date='Aug 8 2007, 10:28 PM']I like your opinion. I always seem to raise my eyes at how pentecostal-like this movement seems... it's probably as recent as the sect. Great post. I don't think Joan of Arc or St Martin of Tours would have got out a geetar and started swaying back and fourth in "praise". Heck, both of them spent times in silent prayer... (and other times battle... but that's beside the point). Heck, St Martin wanted to be ALONE but the people made him a bishop... just goes to show how much silence has been treasured throughout the 2000 years. Btw, I have been to one charismatic mass. It was sorta freaky... the priest apparently consecrated wine in the cruets, then drained the vessels and handed them to the altar servers (who told me after that they--and the semenarians too--were freaked out about that) and there was humming after the consecration of each species... one of them was "peace is flowing like a river" :shudders:, and there were extra moments of blessing eachother's forehead, etc. The interesting part about this is I was in the choir, and we were singing TRADITIONAL music, like Hans Leo Hassler's [i]Missa Secunda[/i] and others. I think the priest cut us off once for one of the mass parts, but otherwise, it was good musically. Then after the priest had the "slaying in the spirit" thing (he had the charism of being able to cause that when praying over people). I went to confession instead, though I was told it was a great feeling... you completely relax and feel so happy. Anywho people were dropping like flies... yeah, so that's my experience. I think there was more, but I'll recall it later... but yeah, I think it's a good go-between too. As long as the happy clappy stuff stays OUTSIDE of mass, and proper reverence and adoration is given to the Eucharist. [/quote] you were singing Missa Secunda in that mass!! That is really...weird. Honestly, I tend to stay away from Charismatic Masses only because I have no idea what abuses, or spiritual uplifting stuff they are going to do... The mass I went to last week was Charismatic...lots of clapping. I only went to it because my dad has been sick and I had to stay in the area in case something happened...when my 8 year old brother came to communion (we go to a TLM and the "Amen when you receive Christ isn't necessary) got MAD at my brother...right there for not saying amen!! My lil brother! I almost didn't get communion (I have a short temper...my weakness.) Also, he tried to give my 12 year old brother communion from the hands (we receive it from our tongues) and when he kept refusing he kinda just threw it in his mouth and looked very upset (the priest) theis same parish told my mom during a daily mass that we are not supposed to kneel before we receive communion...WHY would I regularly go to that kind of Mass?? I felt very uncomfortable...none of the teens were wearing anything appropriate, and there was no silence whatsoever...I can't do that every Sunday. Sorry, I got a little bit off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 [quote name='scardella' post='1353060' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:26 PM']I've seen progress with this at least in the groups I keep in contact with. There's been plenty of movement towards changing "slain in the spirit" to "resting in the spirit" which is a more accurate description. The Born in the Spirit retreats (@ Steubie) I recall would not say baptism in the HS for this reason too... Ultimately, it seems that this is an issue with what it's referred to, not with the action itself.[/quote] That's a really positive development. I'm quite happy to hear that. I hope it catches on in the East Coast as well. [quote name='scardella' post='1353060' date='Aug 8 2007, 05:26 PM']BTW, Every time I've been on a retreat, seminar, etc. where they would pray over people for "baptism in the spirit", they've carefully explained that it is to "stir up" or activate gifts already present via baptism, and not competitive with baptism proper nor necessary for salvation...[/quote] Not the case with me. It was only explained well once at a "Life in the Spirit" seminar. Virtually every charismatic I know would be hard pressed to define it. I'm sure this will all be sorted out over the next hundred years or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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