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The Issue At Hand

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This is something that really bugs me sometimes. Please read the following statement.



"In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."

That is the teaching of a legetimate pope. In this case, it was written by Urban VIII, the 236th Succesor of St. Peter, a man to whom Christ said, in a direct line with Peter "Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." So, these words are how it is. You can't do anything about it.

[u][i][b]So, why is there such a painful rift between what appears to be two opposing parties, the cautious and the bold? [/b][/i][/u] (by the way...this is one of those rare times where it is okay to be either.)

And another point is that private revelation is not neccesary for salvation. I honestly believe that whether or not the Church popular comes to see something as true, when the Magesterium wisely says nothing, is a sign of God's hand. (there was a time when the Church said nothing about Fatima, too). I don't think that the Church He promised would not be beaten by hell would, in general, be allowed to go so far astray.

I do not accuse any member of this site of being apathetic in faith. But, there is one thing I see here that is a cancer, running away with the Church in america today. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE WHAT IS UNCOMFORTABLE? WHAT MAKES US THINK WE CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT TO BELIEVE (although in this case, we can.) AND, EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, [u]WHY IS THERE SO MUCH ARGUMENT OVER THIS???[/u]

This is my say, however. [u]Are we not supposed to be aiding each other to come to know, love, and serve God better in this world? [b][i]FAITH DOES NOT STAY IN AN ARMCHAIR.[/i][/b][/u] It does not often let one be comfortable. That is why I personally choose to believe in the messages that (apparantly) Mary is trying to give to the world. It seems like something she would do. And, it can not be denined that the world today is more sinful than during any other age. We are far from immoral. We are ammoral. Society at large does not care. It doesn't even try. How can both God's love and justice (both equally perfect) be appeased? Be glad, individual, that you are in the Church, and have Christ's body and blood poured out around you.

Why are we doing this? If we, who are the Body of Christ, are so divided...then forget any of these so-called "change" presidential candidates. Don't vote, you're not doing anyone a favor. If we can't be whole as a Church, SCREW THE COUNTRY. Give it to whoever, it doens't matter, time has shown that both Republican and Democrat are equally corrupt. IT DOESN'T MATTER, IF WE ARE NOT ONE.

I know that I'm not neccesarily having a "nice" tone. But...I'm kinda fed up with this. I know I have no power, either as mod, or anything. But, as far as I know, I am using the words of the CHURCH here. I try to do that as often as possible. That way, I know that I am speaking the Truth. Because, honestly, whatever we do, the Church is the Body of Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And my soul intent in posting this has been to shake up some of what seems to me to be needless bickering, on both parties. We are one Church, which is the Body of one Jesus Christ, who is ONE Truth, One Way, and One Life.

And that's my say.

Alexander

PS, [url="http://www.catholicplanet.com/apparitions/discernment.html"]link here for the Church's teaching on Private Revelation. [/url] It's not an actual vatican site, but it's the first one I could find other than the VA that has it right, and it's late.

ok, the link doesn't seem to be working. But, that whole site is a wealth of info. I found that page in particular by googling "CCC, private revelation" and clicking on "Discernment of Private Revelation." Edited by Catholictothecore

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I honestly ignore everything on Medjugorje, and often a lot of the stuff with Fatima.

I like quite a few private revelations, but in the case of question, no reason to care really. There are so many private revelations that you cannot possibly choose them all.

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That's not so much the issue as the...lack of charity there seems to be, on more than one occasion, from the different p.o.v's.

Why do you think it is wise to pick and choose what to believe about Fatima when the Church says you can trust it all? Why wouldn't you?

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[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443247' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:41 PM']Why do you think it is wise to pick and choose what to believe about Fatima when the Church says you can trust it all? Why wouldn't you?[/quote]
First of all, the Church has NOT said it's ok to believe 100% of Fatima. It has only received the approval of the local Bishop. Secondly, I think Urban's quote here speaks more to the fruits of an apparition, rather than it's authenticity. Why does it matter if our Lady really is appearing in Medjugore or not, if people are drawing closer to God and His Church from the belief?

On a personal level I don't believe in Medjugore, however, I fail to see any real reason why we need the Magistreium involved unless the apparition starts to teach things contary to the faith.

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[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443247' date='Jan 8 2008, 03:41 AM']That's not so much the issue as the...lack of charity there seems to be, on more than one occasion, from the different p.o.v's.

Why do you think it is wise to pick and choose what to believe about Fatima when the Church says you can trust it all? Why wouldn't you?[/quote]

This is the real issue with Fatima, for me:

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=41&repos=2&subrepos=&searchid=151356"]http://www.catholicculture.org/reviews/vie...searchid=151356[/url]

[quote]This site is devoted to promoting the message of Fatima, particularly from the viewpoint of Fr. Nicholas Gruner, and to promoting [i]The Fatima Crusader[/i]. While the site does present some useful information regarding the apparition, we have to advise extreme caution. The Fatima Network, and its website, is headed by Fr. Nicholas Gruner. Fr. Gruner has been suspended from priestly ministry and does not have ecclesiastical approval of his activities. Gruner has been in conflict with Church authorities for over 20 years because of his insistence that the Fatima message has gone unheeded. He has rejected the assurances of both Pope John Paul II and Sister Lucia, the surviving Fatima seer, that the directive of the Virgin Mary has been fulfilled, and Russia has been consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.[/quote]

Plus, my favourite devotions are enough to make me not need to worry about other devotions. :)

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[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443241' date='Jan 8 2008, 08:08 AM']This is something that really bugs me sometimes. Please read the following statement.
"In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."

That is the teaching of a legetimate pope. In this case, it was written by Urban VIII, the 236th Succesor of St. Peter, a man to whom Christ said, in a direct line with Peter "Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." So, these words are how it is. You can't do anything about it.[/quote]

Not everything a pope says is binding on the faithful. This is the belief of Pope Urban VIII. I think he's on shaky ground with this theology, as a false apparition (whether demonic or produced by the imagination of some unscrupulous and ambitious 'seer') could quite easily promote false teachings. Where is the blessing in believing such things? It's also important to remember that even genuine revelations can add nothing new to the Faith, which we already have in all its fullness - they just affirm the same truths and point us back to the Gospel.

I am very unsure about Medjugorje myself. There is a possibility that it's true, and I don't deny the graces that people have received through pilgrimage there, but I won't go there myself or participate in a Medjugorje prayer group. This is because I can go to my mother without needing to invoke the title of an apparition. I believe in everything the Church teaches about her. This is enough for me.

[quote]I do not accuse any member of this site of being apathetic in faith. But, there is one thing I see here that is a cancer, running away with the Church in america today. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE WHAT IS UNCOMFORTABLE? WHAT MAKES US THINK WE CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT TO BELIEVE (although in this case, we can.) AND, EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, [u]WHY IS THERE SO MUCH ARGUMENT OVER THIS???[/u] This is my say, however. [u]Are we not supposed to be aiding each other to come to know, love, and serve God better in this world? [b][i]FAITH DOES NOT STAY IN AN ARMCHAIR.[/i][/b][/u] It does not often let one be comfortable. That is why I personally choose to believe in the messages that (apparantly) Mary is trying to give to the world. It seems like something she would do.[/quote]

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, although I may have misread. You say that in this case it's OK to 'pick and choose what to believe' (although I would argue that deciding whether or not to believe in a private revelation is not the same as picking and choosing what suits your personal taste) and then you go on to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe in Medjugorje is staying comfortably in their armchairs. "FAITH DOES NOT STAY IN AN ARMCHAIR...This is why I personally choose to believe..."

[quote]And, it can not be denined that the world today is more sinful than during any other age. We are far from immoral. We are ammoral.[/quote]

It's not possible for a human being to be amoral, which means having no sense of right and wrong. According to Catholicism we all have a conscience. We may shut it out, and we may try and anaesthetise ourselves to it, but it's still there.

[quote]Society at large does not care. It doesn't even try. How can both God's love and justice (both equally perfect) be appeased? Be glad, individual, that you are in the Church, and have Christ's body and blood poured out around you.[/quote]

I agree with St Thomas Aquinas, believing that society [i]does[/i] care and that everyone is hungry for God. It is just that their desires have been distorted to the point where they can't recognise God for Who He is. It is the Holy Spirit, and not us, who will bring people home. If we remember this at all times, there will be no need to get so anguished or so fed up with society - the remembrance of God's providence will keep the hope alive in us and give us the ability to act. If we trust in Him it won't matter who takes what stance on private revelations.

[quote]Why are we doing this? If we, who are the Body of Christ, are so divided...then forget any of these so-called "change" presidential candidates. Don't vote, you're not doing anyone a favor. If we can't be whole as a Church, SCREW THE COUNTRY. Give it to whoever, it doens't matter, time has shown that both Republican and Democrat are equally corrupt. IT DOESN'T MATTER, IF WE ARE NOT ONE.[/quote]

The USA needs a president, irrespective of whether Catholics are bickering over Medjugorje. Concern for the state of the Church should not negate your concern for who is involved in secular government.

[quote]I know that I'm not neccesarily having a "nice" tone. But...I'm kinda fed up with this. I know I have no power, either as mod, or anything. But, as far as I know, I am using the words of the CHURCH here. I try to do that as often as possible. That way, I know that I am speaking the Truth. Because, honestly, whatever we do, the Church is the Body of Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And my soul intent in posting this has been to shake up some of what seems to me to be needless bickering, on both parties. We are one Church, which is the Body of one Jesus Christ, who is ONE Truth, One Way, and One Life.[/quote]

What you say on unity is valuable to hear. However, you have put an interpretative spin on the authority of Pope Urban's words. Of course, most Catholics do the same - we try, sincerely, to live as good Catholics, and sometimes we disagree on how to do this best. We have different views, and not all such difference is bad. For this reason, I won't criticise or condemn people who believe in the appearances of Our Lady at Medjugorje. I will, however, get annoyed if people claim that by not believing I am dishonouring the Queen of Peace and going against her message of unity. Edited by Cathoholic Anonymous

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"In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."

This makes perfect sense if you think about it correctly. First the Holy Father is not saying to believe anything contrary to the faith. What he is saying if an apparition brings you in some way closer to God and the Saints within the context of the Church all well and good,. If you are brought closer to God it is undoubtably [?] the work of the Holy Spirit because all good comes from God. So even if the Church eventually doesn't accept Medjegore, the good fruits that followed the belief of people of goodwill are [i]still there[/i] because God can find good and work good in the darkest places.

Anytime there is a legitimate appariation it is surrounded and clouded by Satan who sends false messages around it to confuse the issue. So until the church rules we proceed cautiously. However the evil one surely doesn't work against himself by doing anything that encourages our faith in God. Appariations are signposts of God's care and concern, not destinations in themselves.
If Mary is appearing we are blessed. If Mary is not appearing but people erronously believe it and are drawn closer to God we are blessed. God blesses His people. God has not abandoned His people. For people of faith, God IS in charge.

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LUKE 6:42-44 43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.

I saw no bad trees in Medjugorje, heard no messages from bad trees nor saw any bad fruit. I only experienced incredible love, peace and joy while there. I was present for an apparition and all I can say is the Blessed Mother is coming to Medjugorje. Believe or not is fine but, don't make your decision until you have been there for yourself.
I am going back in March. I count the days to return to that place of such faith. I started my conversion there. I go back to give thanks for having been called there.

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[quote name='Deb' post='1443303' date='Jan 8 2008, 10:17 AM']LUKE 6:42-44 43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.

I saw no bad trees in Medjugorje, heard no messages from bad trees nor saw any bad fruit. I only experienced incredible love, peace and joy while there. I was present for an apparition and all I can say is the Blessed Mother is coming to Medjugorje. Believe or not is fine but, don't make your decision until you have been there for yourself.
I am going back in March. I count the days to return to that place of such faith. I started my conversion there. I go back to give thanks for having been called there.[/quote]

This is awesome. Peace to you.

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As far as private revelation, I go with my gut feeling. For me, I have a bad gut feeling about Medjugorje. I don't know where it comes from, but I'd be going against my own conscience if I embraced it without reason just because I had some scruple about "believing rather than not". I feel justified by the Catechism's statement (sorry I can't cite it right now) but paraphrased is says that you have no obligation to believe in any private revelation, not even the ones that are approved. The Pope Urban VIII's theological opinion on the subject, I believe, would have lesser weight than the Catechism's official statement. I think people just need to follow where the Holy Spirit leads them, and for some (like me) that may be staying away from the Medjugorje revelations for now.

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I wouldn't say ***** the country, it's not like it's the Sudan or Pakistan.

I accept the Church's judgement on 'private revelations,' so I don't know with whom you're trying to start your fight.

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The Medjugorje apparitions may be all fine and good, but what bothers me to no end is the superstitious attitude that accompanies many of the hardcore followers of the various apparitions.

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[quote name='Didymus' post='1443671' date='Jan 9 2008, 10:33 AM']The Medjugorje apparitions may be all fine and good, but what bothers me to no end is the superstitious attitude that accompanies many of the hardcore followers of the various apparitions.[/quote]

What kind of superstitions have come from these places? I don't know that much about Fatima or Lourdes or Guadalupe, just the basics. I have read some on them and I know people who have been there but, I guess I haven't heard anything other than how beautiful or how peaceful it was.
Medjugorje is something different only because of the secrets. I have no superstitions about them or even think about them. They are not the messages, which is what the Blessed Mother wants heard. Mass, Sacraments, Prayer and Fasting. These things can bring peace, souls to Jesus and reduce the ultimate chastisements that will be coming to the human race. All things we as Catholics should have in our lives now. I am so thankful to have been brought back to all those wonderful graces.

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Was Pope Urban speaking infallibly? No. Therefore it seems to be his personal opinion of which we can regard or disregard as our well formed conscience instructs us.

Let us also contrast the Pope's statement with a statement by one of the greatest mystics of the Church, St. John of the Cross. " The desire for private revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation. We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination. [u][b]Stay away from visions, apparitions, and miracles as much as you can. Be careful of visions, even when they are authentic. [/b][/u]"

My gut says not to trust Medj. From what I've read the suspected apparition has instructed the seers to disobey bishops. Mary would never, ever, ever instruct the faithful to disobey the bishops. When St. Faustina went to her superior for permission on something Jesus had instructed her to do, the superior said no and St. Faustina remained obedient to the superior. When she asked Jesus about this He praised her obedience to the superior.

It seems foolish to place our trust in any and all apparition when more than a few may be caused by something diabolical. The devil will tell 99 truths just to slip in 1 lie.

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the apparitions and messages themselves are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the folks that I see in my parish and surrounding parishes, who have this superstitious take on the apparitions, as if traditional Catholic practices aren't as good as the many devotions they perform for their own respective apparition.

I have no problem with Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, or even Medjugorje. I have a problem when some folks seemingly turn it into their own religion.

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[quote name='Blessed Imelda Pray for Us' post='1443679' date='Jan 9 2008, 11:09 AM']Was Pope Urban speaking infallibly? No. Therefore it seems to be his personal opinion of which we can regard or disregard as our well formed conscience instructs us.

Let us also contrast the Pope's statement with a statement by one of the greatest mystics of the Church, St. John of the Cross. " The desire for private revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation. We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last characteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination. [u][b]Stay away from visions, apparitions, and miracles as much as you can. Be careful of visions, even when they are authentic. [/b][/u]"

My gut says not to trust Medj. From what I've read the suspected apparition has instructed the seers to disobey bishops. Mary would never, ever, ever instruct the faithful to disobey the bishops. When St. Faustina went to her superior for permission on something Jesus had instructed her to do, the superior said no and St. Faustina remained obedient to the superior. When she asked Jesus about this He praised her obedience to the superior.

It seems foolish to place our trust in any and all apparition when more than a few may be caused by something diabolical. The devil will tell 99 truths just to slip in 1 lie.[/quote]

Lots of people talk about Mary instructing the seers to disobey the Bishop. She hasn't. The Bishop of that area did believe the children and did back them. That was until the communist police brought him in and told him he was to disavow the messages or he would be put in prison. They also brought in Fr. Jozo. The Bishop called Fr. and told him he was not willing to go to prison for something that may or may not be happening. Fr. Jozo originally disbelieved the children until he received a message to protect the children. Fr. Jozo was arrested and sentenced to three years in prison. He was tortured and beaten but, was released after 18 months due to public outcry. The Bishop meanwhile decided to state that he did not believe the children.
Rome has explicitely told the Bishop that he was to make sure and preface any of his statements that they were his personal opinion, not the opinion of the Church.

One should never make a definite decision on personal revelations because you just can't know. Six people do not give up their lives from childhood on for nothing however . They certainly aren't getting rich, they are tired, they are pressured but, they still receive pilgrims in their home and cook and clean for them. It is amazing. If you would like to read the weekly messages to the world for the past 23 years, they can be found here: [url="http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~marco/medjugorje/"]http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~marco/medjugorje/[/url] Towards the bottom of the page is the homily that Fr. Jozo gave on the eve of the 15th anniversary of the first apparition. It is beautiful. If you can find anything of Satan in any of this, please let me know.

If I had not been "called" to go there, I would still be living in despair, suicidal, alone. A Seminary student paid my way! I did not even really want to go. Instead, I am in RCIA, I have found a wealth of Catholic friends, God is with me all the time and the church is my salvation. I do believe in the apparitions and the messages and what I felt and saw while I was there. The fruits for me are certainly not of the devil nor were they for any one of the many people I know who have been there. 73 days til my confirmation and 75 until I am on my way back to Medjugorje. Yes, I am counting the days to both of these incredible events brought about by the grace of God.

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When it comes to devotions for me personally, less is more. I have a few devotions I would rather die than not have ( Adoration, Rosary, devotion to the Archangels and a big devotion to Our Lady). I do however, have a deep interest in the Fatima apparitions. Instead of mearly invocing Mary under that Title, I try to do what she asked. Go to confession, pray for conversion, pray the rosary and go to Mass. I think sometimes people get too caught up in the accuall apparitions and center their cult (in the old school sense) around that instead of focusing on the message, which is a good, solid one.

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[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443241' date='Jan 8 2008, 02:08 AM']And another point is that private revelation is not neccesary for salvation. I honestly believe that whether or not the Church popular comes to see something as true, when the Magesterium wisely says nothing, is a sign of God's hand. (there was a time when the Church said nothing about Fatima, too). I don't think that the Church He promised would not be beaten by hell would, in general, be allowed to go so far astray.[/quote]

good insight. take note of these verses:

{20:2} Therefore, she ran and went to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and she said to them, “They have taken the Lord away from the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
{20:3} Therefore, Peter departed with the other disciple, and they went to the tomb.
{20:4} Now they both ran together, but the other disciple ran more quickly, ahead of Peter, and so he arrived at the tomb first.
{20:5} And when he bowed down, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not yet enter.
{20:6} Then Simon Peter arrived, following him, and he entered the tomb, and he saw the linen cloths lying there,
{20:7} and the separate cloth which had been over his head, not placed with the linen cloths, but in a separate place, wrapped up by itself.
{20:8} Then the other disciple, who had arrived first at the tomb, also entered. And he saw and believed.

~notice both Peter and John are running together but John outruns Peter to the tomb. This is symbolic. Some members of the Church arrive at a deeper understanding of the Faith first and the leaders follow later. John saw the sign of the Resurrection first, but he did not enter the tomb, he waited for Peter. This is also a symbolic event in that sometimes the some members of the Church have to wait for the leaders of the Church for the same depth of understanding of the Faith. John saw and understood first, Peter is first in authority, therefore Peter enters first.

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[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443241' date='Jan 8 2008, 01:08 AM']This is something that really bugs me sometimes. Please read the following statement.
"In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."[/quote]

Several things about this quote.
What is the source? Was this quote from a bull, encyclical, apostolic letter, etc.? Can you give this quote in the original Latin so that we can make sure the translation is accurate?

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