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Lent Fast Re-branded ...as 'christian Ramadan'?


Lounge Daddy

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I just saw this in article from TheTelegraph.uk

Why is [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/12/wlent112.xml"]Lent being called "Christian Ramadan?" [/url]Because young people are more likely to know about Islam than Christianity.

The Catholic organizers hope that by linking the Muslim festival of Ramadan they can remind Christians of the "spirituality and sobriety" of Lent, for those Christians who may be less observant than Muslims..
[quote]Four million Dutch describe themselves as Roman Catholics and 400,000 people attend Mass every week but only a few tens of thousands still mark Lent by fasting, said Mr Van der Kuil

Vastenaktie organisers hope that by linking the festival to Ramadan they can remind Christians who may be less observant than Muslims of the "spirituality and sobriety" of Lent.[/quote]

And this is right on the heels of that story, also from Europe, of the archbishop making a statement that Sharia should be embraced because it would "help maintain social cohesion."

Europe really is changing--and fast. (No pun intended)

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It's changing that fast because Europeans aren't having kids, are going old, and need someone to take care of them, so they are importing people from places where they are having kids.

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[quote name='CatherineM' post='1461983' date='Feb 14 2008, 12:11 AM']It's changing that fast because Europeans aren't having kids, are going old, and need someone to take care of them, so they are importing people from places where they are having kids.[/quote]

Actually, there is evidence that the Middle Class European TFR (# of children/female) is correcting back upward, towards a positive growth rate.

Even Russia and Italy (the two worst cases) has seen significant upturns in birthrates.

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cathoholic_anonymous

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1461915' date='Feb 14 2008, 05:28 AM']The Catholic organizers hope that by linking the Muslim festival of Ramadan they can remind Christians of the "spirituality and sobriety" of Lent, for those Christians who may be less observant than Muslims..
And this is right on the heels of that story, also from Europe, of the archbishop making a statement that Sharia should be embraced because it would "help maintain social cohesion."[/quote]

Rowan Williams didn't say that. I wish people would listen to what he did say rather than leaping all over him. He said that [i]on some issues[/i] religious people should not have to choose between loyalty to the country and loyalty to their faith, which was the exact same logic he used when he defended the right of Catholic adoption agencies to refuse to give children to gay couples last February. He argued that Catholic-run agencies should be allowed to follow a modified version of the Provision of Goods and Services Act, and for that he got labelled 'the Archbigot' in the [i]Guardian's[/i] Comment is Free section. In his most recent speech, he also cited the example of the Jewish religious courts that are already in operation to help ease the tension between the Jewish halacha and the law of the state. That is different from calling for the all-out adoption of Shari'ah law in the UK.

Regarding Lent, the solution is obvious: people need to become more observant. I am not surprised that it's being referred to as the Christian Ramadan - when Ramadan rolls round you can see Muslims actually doing something spiritual. With Lent, I hear so many people (non-Christians or nominal Christians) exclaiming about their detox diets and their efforts to give up smoking. Anybody would think we were all on a collective Catholic health kick instead of following a religious fast.

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It's sad to hear this kind of news, but I wouldn't say this is true for all of Europe. And the immigrants coming in bring Catholicism, too- not just Islam. (thank you Poland, Philippines, Brazil, Africa, US!)

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1462042' date='Feb 14 2008, 11:42 AM']Regarding Lent, the solution is obvious: people need to become more observant.[/quote]
Totally agree. All you hear in the media is people giving up chocolate or going on a diet. :ohno:

I must have been living in a bubble, but I didn't know that abstaining from meat and alcohol for the duration of Lent was no longer obligatory, but I'm still learning. :unsure: Since coming to England, I've also been introduced to the bread-and-water only fast for Lent, on Fridays and Wednesdays.

I think another possible reason why Lent fasting is less known about than Ramadan is that Lent is not talked about or fussed about as much as Ramadan is. Catholics are taught/told to keep the fact we are fasting to ourselves. If we did go on about it, we wouldn't be taken seriously. Whereas I've seen others even tell their employers about their fasting, to get more breaks, time off, etc.

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blovedwolfofgod

of course, when you have anything as touchy as Islam, gotta know whats going on. dont wanna mess with the chosen people of the 'true religion,' cause they may be a little enthusaistic to personally introduce you to Allah. Christians, a little more benign.

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cmotherofpirl

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1462042' date='Feb 14 2008, 06:42 AM']Rowan Williams didn't say that. I wish people would listen to what he did say rather than leaping all over him. He said that [i]on some issues[/i] religious people should not have to choose between loyalty to the country and loyalty to their faith, which was the exact same logic he used when he defended the right of Catholic adoption agencies to refuse to give children to gay couples last February. He argued that Catholic-run agencies should be allowed to follow a modified version of the Provision of Goods and Services Act, and for that he got labelled 'the Archbigot' in the [i]Guardian's[/i] Comment is Free section. In his most recent speech, he also cited the example of the Jewish religious courts that are already in operation to help ease the tension between the Jewish halacha and the law of the state. That is different from calling for the all-out adoption of Shari'ah law in the UK.[/quote]
Good point, I am so glad you posted that.

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farglefeezlebut

Didacus, I can't agree with you there. I don't have time to search for statistics on every country in Europe. However, the idea that Europe is dominated by Islam and Paganism just doesn't hold water AT ALL. According to a government census in 2001, the UK is 71.6% Christian and only 2.7% Muslim. Pagans didn't even get their own category, they were presumably part of the "other religions", which made up the 0.3% of the national population. The next most numerous group after Christians wer those who professed no religion, who made up 15.5% of the population. Source: [url="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293"]http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293[/url]
However, only a tiny percentage of those who profess to be Christians in the UK regularly practice: [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520463.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520463.stm[/url] Christianity in the UK isn't declining bceause people are "going over" to Islam or paganism. Judging by the statistics of the 2001 survey, they're more likely to "go over" to athiesm or agnosticism or theism without organised religion, since those of no religion make up 15.5% of the population - more than five times as many as Islam and certainly a lot more than paganism. However, the majority of the UK are Christians who practice their faith rarely or never.

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Consulting my history book here, it seems to me that the better wording would be "Ramadan rebranded as 'Muslim Lent'"...

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LouisvilleFan

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1462066' date='Feb 14 2008, 09:23 AM']of course, when you have anything as touchy as Islam, gotta know whats going on. dont wanna mess with the chosen people of the 'true religion,' cause they may be a little enthusaistic to personally introduce you to Allah. Christians, a little more benign.[/quote]

How many Muslims do you know personally?

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blovedwolfofgod

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1463148' date='Feb 15 2008, 08:13 AM']How many Muslims do you know personally?[/quote]

7

and im pretty okay with keeping it like that. all it takes is one. even though it sounds terrible, and a little racist. but hey, i go with what i see. a dutch guy wants to play his movie about islam, he needs to be put into protection. the last one that filmed a short movie was murdered, when a picture of muhammeds face is in the paper, embassies get blown up, more specifically, if your in the wrong region and have the wrong side of islam, you can easily be targeted by death squads. i dont know christian groups that form death squads, other than the irish in northern ireland, which has died down quite a bit. im not afraid of them, and therefore, i find that its better to keep my contact with them a bit lower.

and of those muslims, its one Turk, and 6 Malaysians. and i talked to one iraqi in Cologne.

Edited by blovedwolfofgod
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[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1463148' date='Feb 15 2008, 01:13 AM']How many Muslims do you know personally?[/quote]


I was mayor of an Iraqi township for 7 months. Roughly 70% Shia, 20% Sunni, the rest being Kurds (largely Sunni, but they don't associate politically or socially with Arab Sunnis).

The default Muslim response,in Muslim-dominated areas, to any hint of disagreement ("insult", "denying the Quran", etc) with Islam, is mob violence. In areas where Muslims are a small minority, they tend to be much quieter. Ask the Copts, or Iraqi Christians.

Note that the one muslim nation (Turkey) to have anything resembling rational civil discourse (elections, Rule of Law, etc) does so by having the Army (it's in their Constitution) enforce secularism, at gunpoint. Ataturk thought that political Islam* is antithetical to democracy and the Rule of Law. Time has proven him wise.


*-unless you accept the arguments that the old guard Communists love to use "...but it's never been done [i]right[/i]".

Edited by MichaelF
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[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1462411' date='Feb 14 2008, 03:29 PM']Didacus, I can't agree with you there. I don't have time to search for statistics on every country in Europe. However, the idea that Europe is dominated by Islam and Paganism just doesn't hold water AT ALL. According to a government census in 2001, the UK is 71.6% Christian and only 2.7% Muslim. Pagans didn't even get their own category, they were presumably part of the "other religions", which made up the 0.3% of the national population. The next most numerous group after Christians wer those who professed no religion, who made up 15.5% of the population. Source: [url="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293"]http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293[/url]
However, only a tiny percentage of those who profess to be Christians in the UK regularly practice: [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520463.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520463.stm[/url] Christianity in the UK isn't declining bceause people are "going over" to Islam or paganism. Judging by the statistics of the 2001 survey, they're more likely to "go over" to athiesm or agnosticism or theism without organised religion, since those of no religion make up 15.5% of the population - more than five times as many as Islam and certainly a lot more than paganism. However, the majority of the UK are Christians who practice their faith rarely or never.[/quote]

I used to disagree with people saying the world is becoming pagan until I read through the Tetullien's Apologetic. i realized then what the pagan world really looked like, and came to further realization that what today calls itself Christian is often not Christian at all, but is closer to pagan than anything else. The stats you state are falsefied by those who believe to be Christian, yet are closer to pagans.

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