Pedophile Priests Or Tridentiners

[Donna]

You find out your child has been sexually abused. It only happened once.

You seek expert advice as to whether or not you should let the abuser be

around your child again, as psychology wasn't well understood when you were growing up. The experts know what to do. They advise it is ok, with precautions.

The bishop is a parent, too; the spiritual father of the souls in his diocese.

Edited August 8, 2003 by Donna

[Donna]

It happens again, same child, same abuser.

Then, you find out 2 other children of your have been abused: one child, over the course of two months. The 3rd child, over a course of a whole year. They were abused by three different people, including the original perpetrator.

You consult the experts again, because you need help deciding whether these should be around your children.

[Donna]

The children are now grown.

Between the experts advice and time, the original three abusers, plus three more have abused in toto five of your own children, six of your brothers' children, three neighborhood children close to your family, and four more of your sister-in laws children, over a total span of twelve years.

The experts have always been there to guide you the whole way.

[hyperdulia again]

In my own diocese a small parish in Montgomery was given a pedophile (and this one was a pedophile he molested pre-pubescent boys and girls); someone found out why he'd been inactive for five years and why he'd left his previous parishes. Virtually everyone stopped going to Mass; a number of people wrote the Bishop and demanded his recall. The Bishop went to this parish and lambasted these people he told them that this priest was cured and that they were behaving in an un-Catholic manner for not forgiving him and allowing him to minister to them. That was ten years ago. Then the scandals came last year and a dozen people aged seven to twenty came foreward and said they had been abused by this man.

[Good Friday]

I'll say it again: Blasting the priests and the Bishops, no matter on what grounds, is not our right nor our responsibility. Dealing with the Bishops is the right and responsibility of the Holy Father and the Cardinals he appoints. Dealing with the priests is the right and responsibility of the Diocesan Bishop and the Holy Father if he so chooses. Dealing with us is the right and responsibility of the priests, the Diocesan Bishop, and the Holy Father. Dealing with our children is our right and responsibility. Are there any questions about the hierarchy of the Church?

When the laity try to place themselves further up on the hierarchy, abuses and schism occur. When you decide, in a very American way, that you have the authority to publicly criticize and judge the actions of the priests, the Bishops, and the Pope, you are no different than the liberals who do the same thing. The Church is not a democracy. It has a hierarchy that must be followed. The Church is not America, it is the Church. The Bishops are not politicians that we criticize, judge, elect, and recall -- they are the Shepherds of the Flock, appointed by the Vicar of Christ, who is appointed by Christ Himself. When we criticize and judge the priests, Bishops, and the Pope, we criticize and judge Christ Himself, who has appointed the Pope by His own Holy Spirit.

This same Holy Spirit guides the Pope in all things, though the special charism of infallibility is only granted in certain circumstances. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit is with the Pope in a special way. He guides the Pope in his decisions about which priests to elevate to the Episcopate, and what to do about those Bishops if they disobey.

When you question the Bishops and the Pope, you question God Himself, who appointed the Pope and has guided him to make these decisions.

If you're prepared to question God, please go right ahead. I, on the other hand, recognize all the really bad decisions I've made in my life, which makes me think that possibly I'm not qualified to question God or the representatives He has called.

[hyperdulia again]

Where was this spirit of non-critiscism when you were calling for a priest to be laicised for a much less serious offense than preying on children.

[VanHooty]

Hooty,

No offense taken. I learned a new word. Would you please answer my question?

Sure, I'll give it a shot.

Essentially, from what I've gathered, your sources are biased and your assumption that the Bishops are distrustful of traditionalists is, for lack of a better term, wrong.

I, for one, would like to see some sort of definitive survey conducted before jumping to any such conclusions. Furthermore, I tend to have faith in the humanity of people. I don't believe the Bishops are automatons who are unfeeling, cold, and, most importantly, immpeccable. Bishops, like other people, can make mistakes. I am more inclined to give the Magesterium the benefit of doubt until I see solid evidence a massive conspiracy to either repress traditionalism or shelter pedofiles.

[Good Friday]

Where was this spirit of non-critiscism when you were calling for a priest to be laicised for a much less serious offense than preying on children.

Point taken. You're absolutely right, I was absolutely wrong. It was not my place to criticize that priest. However, my making a mistake doesn't excuse others to make the same mistake, nor does it disqualify me from correcting the mistake when I see it. If it did, no one on earth would be able to correct the mistakes of others. But I do see your point, and you're right... I was wrong for criticizing and judging that priest. Mark, Donna, et al are wrong for criticizing and judging the Bishops.

[Donna]

WARNING: Some of the following material may be objectionable:

The following are excerpts of Father Haley's deposition, as posted on the website of Roman Catholic Faithful (RCF). (I have censored certain words and phrases which are graphic).

Page 142

wait here and I'll go see if I can get him.

I went upstairs, knocked on the door,

and he opened the door and he was stark

naked. And he was surprised to see me, but

he was not surprised the door -- that

somebody had knocked at the door. And he

kind of closed the door halfway. And he said

what do you want? And I said there's

somebody down here who wants to see "Billy."

To Which he responded, "Send him up."

I recanted this to Bishop Keating who

said oh, that's very unfortunate. Oh, that's

very terrible. And I said and then I was at

Saint Louis and my pastor, Father Irace, used

to have an extraordinarily gay-looking

masseuse come and give him personal massages

in his bedroom. And there were dinner

conversations that would indicate that there

was a rupture in these priests' life.

For example, he said celibacy and

chastity are separate. Just because you're

celibate doesn't mean you have to be chaste.

Page 143

And if you're gay, you know, you could be

attracted and even involved sexually with

other men and you haven't broken your vow of

celibacy.

And I said even in the seminary

we had seminarians who were approached by

others to have, quote, "b... j...," and you

know, if it was brought to the attention,

maybe the seminarian would leave for a week

and then he would come back, quote, "cured."

So it was all a revelation that was starting

to become painfully obvious by 1996, but I

had no idea the interconnections of all of

this until I lived with Father Erbacher.

Q Now, is that what you mean when you

said -- you said earlier that you weren't

aware until after you were ordained, you're

not saying you weren't aware of

homosexuality, I assume then that you weren't

aware of the, I guess, the power structure

that this formed for those. And you said

that there were threats of anyone who

Page 144

challenged them?

A I never knew that there was -- that a

diocese or a bishop would knowingly ordain a

homosexual man, never knew that. And I

though that they would want to know that a

man or a seminarian or a priest was

homosexual. And they couldn't care less, so

I started to feel like the outsider, like

maybe I was the unique guy. That it wasn't

the gay men that were unique, it was the

straight men that were unique. And as I say,

it became painfully obvious when I went and

was assigned in July of 26 -- July 26 of 199

--

Q 5?

A 9, I guess with Father Erbacher at

Saint Lawrence. Who, as I have indicated,

was best friends with the chancellor, Bob

Rippy and Danny Spychala. And they were

three of the most notable gossips of the

diocese and he gave me so much information

that I actually went to lawyers and said, can

Page 145

I tape this, because no one could possibly

believe what I'm hearing.

Q And that's what you told lawyers or

asked of lawyers? But when you -- what did

you discover with regard to when you were

with Father Erbacher that you -- that caused

you concern?

A He knowingly pointed out members of

the clergy in Arlington who were gay and gave

evidence of that, associations. For example,

he had gone through the picture book of Saint

Lawrence and showed me the boys of the

previous pastor, Father McAfee.

I was becoming aware through other

means that other pastors and priests had

problems. And certainly one of my classmates

had gone into the bishop several times with

incidents that would shock anyone. Came home

and saw his pastor at Saint Mary's anally

raping or having intercourse with the b....

maintenance man in the living room or going

to a parish where the priest had an 18-year

Page 142 - Page 145

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[Donna]

WARNING: this material may be objectionable. Certain phrases of words too graphis I have deleted.

Continuation of Father Haley's deposition (as posted on Romen Catholic Faithful website). This is a public record.

Page 146

relationship with a gay man.

Complaining to the diocese, becoming

depressed over their inactivity and he

finally left the priesthood. Other priests

who came to me said that they had been

molested by priests of our diocese, that they

had been fondled and approached. It was just

becoming much, much, much more apparent to me

how significant the problem was and how

secret it was.

Q Going back to Father Erbacher for a

second, how did you get into a conversation

with him where he was pointing out gay

members of the diocese? Did he initiate this

and just offer it as a general conversation or

was there some purpose to a conversation with

him?

A He's a natural gossip and talks

amazingly. Initial conversation started out

with his own history and his relationship,

painful relationship with his mother. His

mannerisms had indicated that there may be

Page 147

something at least effeminate about him. And

then I overheard a conversation between him

and Father Rippy and Father Spychala and

Father Saunders and they were talking about

various priests in the diocese and my name

came up.

Q Where was this conversation being

held?

A At Saint Lawrence. It was an

outside conversation that they were having

during dinner and overheard remarks of

suspicions about me.

Q Is this at the dinner table?

A Yes.

Q And you were in the area, but not at

the table?

A Right.

Q What did they -- what were they

mentioning about you?

A I had bought a motorcycle and

they were commenting on the leather that I

sometimes wore and references to, oh, well

Page 148

we know where he goes with that and boy he

better protect his c.... j..... and

references to men's body parts that I was

astounded at to be talked about among four

men, four priests. So the suspicion was in

their minds that I was gay. I guess they

didn't know why a motorcyclist wears leather

as a second skin. They saw it as some other

thing.

And so I suppose, encouraged the

suspicion one night at a dinner when Father

Erbacher had a dog and I said why would you

get a dog ...........? And he looked at

me with this stunned expression and I imagine

he probably called his friends and said he's

gay, I know he's gay. Because after that he

started confiding in me all of those who were

and their behaviors and --

Q Did he mention about the relationship

between he and Father Rippy and others, any

others?

A The two years that he was at Saint

Page 149

Lawrence, I knew the assignments before they

were announced and made because Father Rippy

had told Father Spychala who told Father

Erbacher, so there was nothing really secret.

I had heard, you know, activities

about Father Verrecchia basically coming down

through that same chain and one could tell

that there was an extraordinary friendship.

I mean Father Rippy and Father Erbacher had

traveled together to Las Vegas several times.

There were conversations that

indicated Father Erbacher had been trained by

certain priests of the diocese on how to

handle and obtain money. Conversations he

not only had with me, but other people in the

parish about if you were going to take cash

from the collection, you had to be

consistent, you know.

And there was a priest at the time,

Father Ciullo had been arrested for

inappropriating -- misappropriating funds.

And Father Erbacher's comments, oh, he just

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[Donna]

WARNING: the following material may be objectionable. Certain graphic words or phrases have been deleted.

Continuation of Father Haley's deposition as posted on Roman Catholic Faithful website. This is a public record.

Page 150

didn't do it right, you have to be

consistent. So flags were being raised all

over the place for me and I became aware that

even Father Erbacher, himself, was engaged

in stealing funds and in homosexual activity,

a large collection of homosexual material.

Q How did you become aware of that? Of

the -- I'm sorry, of the --

A The financial irregularities?

Because there were a number of things that he

was doing that were outside the policy

procedures for handling money. Keeping

collection money for a week, not locking the

safe, giving me Sunday off and telling me to

go away. And then I would notice that the

collection had been counted and that it was

altered from the time it had been placed in

the safe until the money was counted on

Monday.

Procedures were that the money should

be collected the same day and counted the

same day and deposited in the bank. In

Page 151

public places, his office or where the money

was placed in the safe, there were certain

financial documents, including personal

documents that indicated large deposits of

cash into his own personal accounts. His

office and public space that he was in had

incredible effeminant looks to it.

There were various pictures of people

that he had talked about. He had given me

the full history of Bishop Loverde, his

assignment, his friendship with an Archbishop

Cronin. And how Archbishop Cronin was such a

pearl of a man and basically indicating

incredible discretions of Archbishop Cronin

with other men.

Q So it -- but what was his

relationship with Bishop Loverde?

A Apparently, Archbishop Cronin was

either Bishop Loverde's bishop as a priest

and apparently, according to Father Erbacher,

there was -- he was instrumental in obtaining

his episcopacy for Bishop Loverde.

Page 152

Q Was there any express or inference of

any relationship between Bishop Loverde and

Archbishop Cronin of a homosexual nature?

A No. But certainly there was about

Bishop Loverde and his -- and a Brother David

Eddie who lives with him and has lived with

him for more than 15 years, 18 years or

something.

Q Did Bishop Erbacher -- I am sorry,

excuse me, Father Erbacher sort of took you

into his confidence after you, I believe you

sort of encouraged him with a comment about

the dog, that he opened up to you after that

about these matters?

A Yes.

Q Did he indicate -- one thing I want

to go back to -- you said, I don't know if it

was after that or prior to that he had

already shown you a book of -- picture book

of Saint Lawrence showing the, quote, "boys

of Father McAfee."

What did you mean by the "boys of

Page 153

Father McAfee"?

A Apparently, Father McAfee used to pay

teenage boys five hundred dollars, in some

cases a thousand dollars in cash for

continuing on as alter boys during their

postpubescent teenage years. And apparently,

according to Father Erbacher, he had taken

many of these boys to his beach home.

And he told me about similar problems

with Father Fasano and how he had taken boys

to his beach home. And all flags, but became

substantiated by conversations and evidence

that I got from other people, from other

priests.

Q He said -- he also pointed out to

you gay members of the diocese? You mean

other gay priests?

A Yes.

Q Did he say -- did any of those

resonate with you as being closely aligned

with each other to be supportive and

protective of each other?

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[Donna]

WARNING: the following material may be objectionable. Certain graphic words or phrases I have deleted.

Continuation of Father Haley's deposition as posted on Roman Catholic Faithful website. This is a public record.

Page 154

A Absolutely.

Q Who were those?

A Certainly it seemed that the

chancellor, Father Rippy and Bill Saunders

and Danny Spychala and Bill Erbacher were all

gay and had a very strong bond and were very

supportive and defensive of each other.

There was conversations about Father

Verrecchia and some of his relationships with

some of the gays in the diocese, including

his replacement as MC.

Q What's "MC"?

A Master of Ceremonies for the bishop.

Q Who was his replacement?

A Richard Mullins and, you know, in

conversations that were just phenomenal. You

know, Richard Mullins has a -- he's always

over there with Monsignor Bransfield, you

know. And I said who's Monsignor Bransfield?

He said he's the -- he runs the National

Shrine, you know the Immaculate Conception.

And I said what are you telling me? He said

Page 155

he's one of the boys. He's got a big boy's

club. They have their big parties over

there. Just phenomenal stories.

Q Now when you say "boys," this is

parties with young boys?

A No, fellow gay priests.

Q Oh, gay priests, okay.

A Now, I made a personal decision that

I was not going to talk about any of this to

anyone until I had some substantial

information and verification of some of these

things that he was telling me.

Q And did you obtain that?

A I have. And have shown some of that

to Bishop Loverde. I obtained factual

information about Father Erbacher and his

homosexuality.

Q What did you obtain that you showed

Bishop Loverde?

A Pictures of his homosexual

pornography collection of basically young

boys, very similar to what Father Verrecchia

Page 156

had been looking at, but much more extensive.

Gay guides, he took frequent trips to Mexico

and Indonesia and he had, you know, The Gay

Mexican Guide to the best gay beaches. And

so I had gone to Bishop Loverde and told him

he had a significant problem at Saint

Lawrence. That there was immoral and

criminal activity occurring and that it was

very obvious an that he needed to go and see

it. And he wanted documentation.

And after having been assaulted for

the self-incriminating factual evidence that

I had presented on Father Verrecchia, I was

reticent to give him any documents for fear

that he would then claim that I had doctored

it or manufactured it or created it, rather

than to believe in the truth of what I was

saying.

So I gave him the key to the rectory

and told him to see for himself and he

refused, claiming that documents by me would

be better. And I said what could be more

Page 157

better than your own eyewitness testimony,

then when Father Erbacher says who told you

this, you can slam your fist on the table and

say I saw it and it makes me sick. And I

said it does make you sick, doesn't it?

And it began a whole series of

conversations with Bishop Loverde about his

stance towards homosexuality. What he was

willing to do if he knew that priests were

homosexual or that they were inclined to

this. Whether he was going to make any

precautions towards the assigning two

homosexual priests together in a rectory

unsupervised, whether he was going to inform

clergy of fellow priests who might be

homosexuals so that prudence or safeguards

might be up.

I told Bishop Loverde, I said you

forced me to live with a gay man and you

didn't tell me. He said he didn't know.

Q That being Father Erbacher?

A Yes. He said that he never asks.

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[Good Friday]

Donna -- I don't think anyone here is denying that what you and Mark have brought up... that is, pedophile priests... is wrong. But you have not answered anything we've said. Neither you nor Mark have answered the charge that you're using the scandal to advance the traditionalist agenda (which it does appear that you're doing), and neither of you has answered me about whether or not it's appropriate to criticize the decision of the Bishop whether or not the indult for the Tridentine Mass will be granted in his Diocese.

The Tridentine Mass and pedophile priests are completely separate issues. Your desire to combine them is questionable, and can leave me with no other alternative than to believe that you are using the scandal to advance the traditionalist agenda. Am I right, or am I not? And if not, please explain to me how your combining these two very different issues is not an attempt to capitalize on the scandals.

[Donna]

Continuation of Father Haley's deposition as posted on Roman Catholic Faithful website. This is a public record.

Page 158

And I said what do you mean you never ask?

How can you assign two men to live together

and now know or ask if one of them is gay?

He said I have no right to ask. And I said

you have a responsibility if you're going to

place them in a living situation, which can

be an incredible temptation to them.

And it became apparent to me that

again, more substantial information that was

concurring with the stories and the rumors

that I have heard from Father Erbacher and

other priests in the diocese.

Q When you gave him the key, this

was to the rectory and the offices of which

are under the -- under his auspices as the

head of the Diocese of Arlington?

A Yes.

Q And you understand he would have a

right because it's under him to access

anything in the diocese?

A Yes.

Q And instead you said he wanted the

Page 159

documentation to come from you from there?

A Yes.

Q And did you then follow his request

and go and obtain that information and give

it to him?

A I told him that you have the greatest

documentation possible. You have the

eyewitness testimony of a priest who is

credible and was in a meeting with his bishop

and he was officially telling you that you

have criminal and immoral activity going on.

And I said I would expect there to be some

investigation.

And there was no investigation, there

was no interviews, there was no inquiry. And

seven, eight weeks later information was

apparently sent to the bishop and to the

media sources and it became immediately

public. And only after that two months and

only after that public attention was Father

Erbacher removed, immediately evaluated and

immediately there was a financial audit at

Page 160

the parish, but only after it had become

public.

Q Where is Erbacher now?

A I do not know. Apparently, for a

while he was at Saint Leo's Parish in Fairfax

living there in secret, but I have lately

heard that he's no longer probably with the

diocese. He's going to leave.

Q And what -- did you provide -- what

information did you provide from your

eyewitness accounts to Bishop Loverde

regarding financial information?

A When he received the information, he

questioned me about it and I said I can

verify all of the information.

Q And where did he get the information?

A It was sent to him anonymously,

apparently.

Q And he -- did he have it when he met

with you on this? I mean, did he have the

information with him when he met with you or

did he just mention what it was?

Page 161

A He had never -- he never really had a

conversation with me. This all became public

after I had been transferred to Saint Mary's

in Fredericksburg. I had been there about

three weeks when I, too, saw the news

accounts of his being investigated for

financial irregularities.

Q Is this the same time as the public

information about the prosecution of -- who

was it you mentioned?

A Father Sal Ciullo.

Q Father Ciullo?

A Yes.

Q This was at the same time they

mentioned something about Erbacher?

A Yes.

Q Okay. And this -- what little was

reported publicly, this was consistent with

what you had observed and told to Father --

to Bishop Loverde?

A Absolutely.

Q Did it involve financial misdealings

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[Donna]

Fast forward and interruption in sequence of Father Haley's deposition as posted on Roman Catholic Faithful website. This is a public record.

Page 182

Again, instead of being looked at for

a pastorship since I had not done anything

wrong. I was now being moved again after a

very short assignment to be an associate

somewhere else.

Q Well, did you find that coincidence

somewhat suspicious in your being transferred

to Saint Lawrence on July 26 of 1999, after

you gave the information a month earlier to

the bishop regarding Father Verrecchia?

A Yes, very suspicious.

Q And did you attribute any suspicion

to the coincidence of your complaint

about Father Erbacher in June and the ongoing

matters regarding Mr. Lambert and your

being transferred a couple of weeks later

then to Saint Mary's in Fredericksburg?

A Yes, there seemed to be direct

correlations.

Q How long did you stay at Saint Mary's

and if there was a change in that, how did

that come about?

Page 183

A Almost immediately upon arriving at

Saint Mary's I realized that there was a

significant problem there with the pastor.

That he was involved in extraordinarily

graphic and incredibly disturbing

sadomasochism, sexual torture, cross-

dressing, transgender, pornography that

involved she-males. That he was completely

addicted, daily immersed in this kind of

sexual horror and felt that it would probably

accomplish nothing for me to make the bishop

aware of this because I didn't want to face

again what I had faced with Father Verrecchia

and Father Erbacher.

So I thought the best solution would

be to see if I could somehow find a place in

the church outside of the Diocese of

Arlington where a true respect for priestly

holiness and morality and some sort of

policies against homosexuals and homosexual

activities was to be found. And so I asked

the bishop for a leave of absence so that I

Page 184

could find another place because I was now

thoroughly disgusted not only with what I

presented to the bishop, but also with what I

know and have not yet fully presented to the

bishop.

I thought it was the best solution

for him, for myself and for any embarrassment

to the diocese, so I requested that in

September and --

Q At that time did you or prior to that

time or at that time, did you present to

Bishop Loverde the fact that you were aware

of the Saint Mary's pastor? What was his

name?

A Father Daniel Hamilton.

Q Father Hamilton's collection of

masochistic and pornographic materials?

A No. I indicated to him that there

were also problems at Saint Mary's, but I

didn't specify.

Q Did he ask you what they were?

A He said that he was tired of me

Page 185

telling him these vague references to people

-- priests with problems and unless I gave

him substantial, credible information that he

couldn't do anything about it.

And again, discussions about what

credible was. Was it more credible to

believe a priest or more credible to believe

a document that could be altered or changed

or whatever.

Q So this is similar to his previous

request after being given the --

A Yes.

Q -- material in the Lambert matter,

this was his further request when you pointed

out the Erbacher stuff, that you should just

get him that material?

A It seemed to me that the only person

that was getting into trouble was me and

that I was somehow suffering for what I

thought I should be thanked for. That there

should have been an appreciation over Father

Verrecchia and Erbacher that I had given them

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