....and He Calls Himself A Christian

[Deb]

[b]Bush's tortured veto[/b]
Congress should enhance the truth by overriding President Bush's shameful veto of a ban on torture.March 11, 2008
'We do not torture," President Bush insists, yet that assurance is accompanied by an unspoken "but." In [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-veto9mar09"]vetoing legislation[/url],1,218858.story that would require CIA interrogators to abide by the same humanitarian standards imposed on their counterparts in the U.S. military, Bush again has drowned out his denials with an ominous silence about just what "enhanced" interrogation tactics he considers appropriate.

In a shameful Saturday [url="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/03/20080308.html"]radio address[/url] justifying his veto, Bush argued that CIA interrogators can't be confined to techniques allowed by the [url="http://www.enlisted.info/field-manuals/fm-2-22.3-human-intelligence-collector-operations.shtml"]Army Field Manual[/url] "because the manual is publicly available and easily accessible on the Internet." So, of course, are the [url="http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/375-590006"]Geneva Convention[/url] and the [url="http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/12/detainee-treatment-act-of-2005-white.php"]Detainee Treatment Act[/url], which prohibit "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." By the president's logic, acceptance of the humanitarian standards included in those documents also deprives the United States of the element of surprise.

Bush has been playing a dangerous game, forswearing torture while making the argument that suspected terrorists must be made to give up their secrets at any cost. In his radio address, he claimed that the CIA interrogation program pried loose information that helped avert a series of terrorist attacks, including one in Los Angeles. If the stakes are that high and the alternatives futile, why not torture?

The [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/14/AR2005111400247.html"]best answer[/url] to that question was offered by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in 2005. Calling terrorists "the quintessence of evil," McCain insisted that "it's not about them; it's about us. This battle we're in is about the things we stand for and believe in and practice. And that is an observance of human rights, no matter how terrible our adversaries may be."

Alas, the man who spoke those words before he became the presumptive Republican presidential nominee voted against the legislation Bush vetoed. But McCain was as right in 2005 as he is wrong now. By reserving the right to use unspecified enhanced interrogation methods, the United States -- especially the United States under this president -- abandons the moral high ground. That is why, on balance, it serves America's interests for there to be a single standard for interrogation techniques.

The Army Field Manual provides such a single standard. And, yes, it tells America's enemies in specific terms what this country will not do. Are those the techniques Bush wants to preserve as options for the CIA? If so, terrorists already know from the Field Manual what they involve and, according to the president, can undergo training to resist them. If the president has other, even harsher, tactics in mind, then the assurance that "we don't torture" rings even hollower. Congress should end his word games by voting to override his veto.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Deb

[catholicinsd]

I think now that he is in his final year he's just trying to ruin as much as he can.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1475770' date='Mar 11 2008, 02:53 PM']I think now that he is in his final year he's just trying to ruin as much as he can.[/quote]
Let's see if he pilfers everything in the White House when he leaves.


lol

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1475771' date='Mar 11 2008, 02:54 PM']Let's see if he pilfers everything in the White House when he leaves.
lol[/quote]

He doen't need to. He's already pilfered the whole of two countries.

[Deb]

I love you both!

[Deb]

I am ashamed of my country today.

[Mercy me]

If is human nature to fear the unknown. If you know what to expect then you can prepare for it. It is about knowing your enemy. Why would we want to give anyone an advantage over us? It is to our advantage to use human nature against others.

[CatherineM]

I heard someone last night on talking TV about torture. He basically said that those who resort to it are admitting they have failed or are losing.

We are supposed to be better than this. I was woken up several times a week growing up to the sound of my father screaming in his sleep. I wish I could have asked him more things about what happened to him during the war before he died. Maybe I'm better off not knowing.

[Ash Wednesday]

For the record, congress has failed to override the veto, so they also share in culpability.

[Theologian in Training]

In the words of a great comedian: "Go back to sleep America, your government is in control, you are free to do as we tell you."

[T-Bone _]

Sad day.

We cannot lower ourselves to the level of the monsters which we fight.

[Justin86]

Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it.

Waterboarding is going to banned next year regardless of which candidate we have to chose from wins the White House.

Oh, and since our enemies use even worse interrogation techniques, how do we know which side is "losing" supposedly?

[Justin86]

Just to add: while I'm not so lame to agree that waterboarding is torture, I would rather Bush had just accepted that this practice is going bye-bye if he would veto a spending bill or two.

Look, when I hear worse stories of what they do to you at Marine Boot Camp I just can't find it in my heart to have sympathy with terrorists who get water poured in their mouths.

[blovedwolfofgod]

Im with Justin. Its psychological torture that you are put through. Mind numbing pscyhological games. You dont die during an American torturing routine. Maybe some bruises. The enemy does worse, first of all. They've broken many a soldier. Second, its giving them a taste of their own medicine. They figure out if you dont know anything in a short amount of time. Generally. Besides, after seeing how middle easteners in Afghanistan actually live, a little waterboarding isnt that different from day to day life. AND they get a bath.

[Justin86]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1476684' date='Mar 13 2008, 08:39 PM']Besides, after seeing how middle easteners in Afghanistan actually live, a little waterboarding isnt that different from day to day life. AND they get a bath.[/quote]