musturde Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Could I please have some proof that the Blessed Mother was sinless, maybe a Bible verse or anything. Someone argued that in The Song Of the Blessed Mother the Virgin Mary thanked the Lord for her salvation. (the guy argueing used this as the Blessed Mother calling Jesus her salvation which would mean she was with sin for there were some people who went into heaven Before Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 By the way this arguement was by a former Catholic but now an Anglican (sp?) is there any things I can bring up maybe some errors of his faith so he can reconvert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 We talked a little about this here. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...wtopic=361&st=0 Also check this out. http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS9.HTM Here is info on Anglicanism. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ138.HTM You have a lot of reading a head of you. If you still have questions after you read these links let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Yes, unfortunately the "former Catholic" was, as usual for "fromer Catholics", an uninformed Catholic. The Blessed Mother did indeed NEED a savior. But it can be compared to me :D I have never in my life taken drugs. Yes, the Lord saved me from drugs, but it was a pre-emptive salvation. I didn't need to take drugs first in order for God to save me from them. So too with Mary. She was saved of sin before she even sinned. Another way of looking at it: If Jesus never came, Mary would not have been sinless. It was precisely BECAUSE Jesus came, that Mary was kept from sin. Jesus died for her - but not in the sence that she had to wait till he was dead and risen in order for her to be saved. She was saved because of the necessity of Jesus to die and rise! If Jesus didn't need to die, than He wouldn't have needed to be born. And if he wouldn't have been born, then Mary wouldn't have been sinless. Hope that helps. If you need more info, just let us know. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I thought that "All have sinned." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I also thought that "ALL Israel would be saved"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXpenguin21 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) Could I please have some proof that the Blessed Mother was sinless, maybe a Bible verse or anything. Luke 1:28 - And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." what reason on Earth would an Angel, a being who is purly soul, purly worshiping God in His kingdom, have to "Hail" a sinful humanbeing? then go on and say that they are "favored" and that "The Lord is with you"? where has there ever been a situation where man has found favor with God after the fall of man? after origional sin? here is where we start to see just what Mary is all about, and just what she's not about; sin. Luke 1:30 - Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. here, we see more of the same. Mary is naturaly afraid. every time God makes His first moment of cantact in the world at any time in the bible, He always sends us the message of 'Be not afraid'. (the Pope's signature phraise) i'd also like to point out that these passages were taken from Luke's gospel. For those that do not know, Luke writes with a very factual, logical, and percise style. this is due to Luke's practice of medicine and science. He likes to break things down to their undenyable roots. this might mean you still have to look into them to analyse their meaning or interpretation. luke 1:46-49 - And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. Mary's soul "proclaims the greatness of the Lord"; the life we all should lead. why? its all we are called to do! in all things, we should be working to proclaim the greatness of the Lord. when we arn't successful at this, we fall into temptation and into sin. Mary didn't have this problem. She 'rejoiced in God her savior", and thanked God for her salvation because only God, her Creator, could have created her sinless, already in a state of salvation. Mary is mentioned way back in Genesis!! She is the one that the Trinity speaks about when they anounce that they will put enmity between satan and the woman! mary is refered to by Jesus as 'woman' because that was a term of respect at that time (do not call your mother 'woman' today! haha). Genesis 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." God is speaking to satan in this passage and says that He will keep the woman from satan, which must mean she will always be in a state of grace, which means she is without sin. to go back to Luke's gospel, when mary reaches elizabeth, the Holy Spirit exclaims through elizabeth: luke 1:41-42 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. sooo... the Holy Spirit of God anounces this through His servant, elizabeth. Mary and Jesus (the fruit of her womb) are both put under the same heading as "Blessed". infact, mary is said to be MOST blessed out of all women! not just the women then, because God has no time. mary is most blessed out of ALL women ever! if man and women are complementary beings, then out of all the women throughout all of time, which woman would be complimentary enough to be worthy of being the Spouse of God? perhaps the woman who's MOST BLESSED. i love our mother Mary. Could I please have some proof that the Blessed Mother was sinless, maybe a Bible verse or anything. need more? Edited August 5, 2003 by IXpenguin21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I also thought that "ALL Israel would be saved"? Chapter and verse please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 great bible passages IX! those surely proclaim the honor of Mary as being the Blessed Mother of Jesus....i love it when i can go to the BIble and read about that and know that yes, it is true, one should love His Mother as Jesus Himself did..... amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Romans 11: 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 In many cases "all" refers to a large quantity. In humans cases All (but two - Mary and Jesus). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Luke 1:28 - And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." what reason on Earth would an Angel, a being who is purly soul, purly worshiping God in His kingdom, have to "Hail" a sinful humanbeing? then go on and say that they are "favored" and that "The Lord is with you"? where has there ever been a situation where man has found favor with God after the fall of man? after origional sin? In Judges 6:12 The angel of the Lord addresses Gideon saying "The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valor." Daniel 9:23 Gabriel is speaking to Daniel "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved:therefore, understand the matter and consider the vision. Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted(a literal translation would read 'hath bestowed favor[grace] upon us) in the beloved. Genesis 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." God is speaking to satan in this passage and says that He will keep the woman from satan, which must mean she will always be in a state of grace, which means she is without sin. Huh? It doesn't say that. It states that there will be enmity(root word is enemy) between them. Doesn't necassarily imply sinlessness. luke 1:41-42 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. sooo... the Holy Spirit of God anounces this through His servant, elizabeth. Mary and Jesus (the fruit of her womb) are both put under the same heading as "Blessed". infact, mary is said to be MOST blessed out of all women! not just the women then, because God has no time. mary is most blessed out of ALL women ever!. Christ Himself stated that John the Baptist was the greatest among men. Does that make him sinless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Romans 11: 26. Hmmmm. It appears to be referring to the National Salvation of Israel. The ultimae fullfillment of the new covenant(Jer 31:31-34) and will be realized when Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth. God cannot do otherwise because of His promise to the fathers of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 So will "ALL" Israelites be saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Christ Himself stated that John the Baptist was the greatest among men. Does that make him sinless? No, men sin. Mary was a woman! :D Just being silly. Greatness doesn't imply sinlessness. Being FULL of Grace does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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