Jump to content
An Old School Catholic Message Board

The Problems Of Time And Eternity


Ziggamafu

Recommended Posts

If time were everlasting, we would never arrive at any given point; it would have taken forever for then to turn into now. Therefore we can conclude that time had a beginning.

If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning there was only eternity; yet there would be no "prior to" time since time is required for a given point of beginning to be determined.

This leads us to a logical dilemma.

If eternity exists beyond the history of time, then eternity is motionlessness, for eternity has no ability (by definition) for "then" to become "now" or for "this" to become "that". Eternity is stillness. It precludes action since action requires a point at which the action was not that may arbitrated from a point at which the action is. There are no points in eternity, only an infinite "now". But if this is true, how could time "begin" at all?

So we are left with a paradox. It seems impossible that we are here, either according to the problem of everlasting time or the subsequent problem of eternity. Yet we are here. We believe that God is eternal and that, ontologically, God is Truth (and therefore "reasonable"). Therefore, even if we are not capable of fully understanding God as he truly is, we should be able to at least provide reasonable explanations for apparent problems or contradictions.

Obviously this problem of time and eternity does not pose a threat to God's existence anymore than it poses a threat to our own existence; indeed, the problem itself seems to suggest that the only answer could be God. But that does not solve the dilemma.

If God is eternal and eternity is timeless then how could there be, within eternity, a point at which time was not and a point at which it was?

Philosophically inclined fellows, please put your thinking caps on...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LouisvilleFan

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1569472' date='Jun 12 2008, 11:06 AM']If God is eternal and eternity is timeless then how could there be, within eternity, a point at which time was not and a point at which it was?[/quote]

For one, there is no "within eternity" because it implies the impossible: that there's anything outside of eternity. There are no boundaries on eternity.

Second, there is no such thing as a "point" at which time did not exist. That's logically impossible. If any such point exists, it would logically become part of time because the definition of time is this series of sequential "points" from beginning to end, which we believe God created.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Madtown Sem.

I believe that Boethius answered this well. His difficulty was that he questioned whether or not we had free will if God "foreknows" all that we will do. His answer was that God exists in the [i]eternal present[/i], where he can see all time at once. As far as the difficulty with the beginning of time, since God created [i]ex nihilo[/i], when creation material creation began, time began. The problem of understanding an unmoving eternity vs. the moving universe we experience can be addressed by the fact that creation is still happening by the sustaining action of God.

That's a start anyways...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Eastern Christian theology God is beyond eternity, just as He is infinitely beyond the infinite. I recommend reading St. Gregory of Nyssa's [i]Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes[/i], because he addresses this issue in that homily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1569472' date='Jun 12 2008, 09:06 AM'][snip]

If God is eternal and eternity is timeless then how could there be, within eternity, a point at which time was not and a point at which it was?

Philosophically inclined fellows, please put your thinking caps on...[/quote]

*puts on his thinking hat - it kinda looks like a cowboy hat but its a lot cooler*


God is eternal - yes
God resides thus in eternity - yes

We, in our earthly existence, are not currently residing in eternity. Eternity, as you alluted, exists outside of time. Thus eternity is not 'an infinite amount of time' but rather 'the complete absence of time' hence why things cannot change within eternity. Change is simply an effect of time, or one can argue time is an effect of change (the two are intimately linked). This of course is fully consistent with Catholic doctrine which states that once we have died, we will reside in an eternal unchanging state (save for purgatory which is not eternal, but temporal).

This is also consistent within the writtings of the saints, including one of my favorites-Saint Augustine. Saint Augustine writes in his famous 'Confessions' a very accurate understanding of time versus eternity - in truth the brilliance of the man is demonstrated as such in this single writting that it is my own opinion that given the mathematical tools he would have been able to enact the laws of relativity with flawless precision.

*takes off cap, reaches for his coffee*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1569584' date='Jun 12 2008, 11:05 AM']For one, there is no "within eternity" because it implies the impossible: that there's anything outside of eternity. There are no boundaries on eternity.

Second, there is no such thing as a "point" at which time did not exist. That's logically impossible. If any such point exists, it would logically become part of time because the definition of time is this series of sequential "points" from beginning to end, which we believe God created.[/quote]

*puts thinking cap on*

I believe you are mistaken, or the thought is somewhat incomplete.

Time is intimately defined by change (there can be no change without time, and no time without change). Thus time is sequential as change is sequential.

I believe you state 'there cannot be a point IN TIME at which time did not exist. There can be however, a state in existence which remains unaffected by time and this state of course, is eternity - outside of time, outside of change, not within time. This can be expressed in many ways but the one invariable truth is that eternity is that which is not affected by time, or that lies outside of time.

This poses the question; eternity is state of being or a place?
I believe it is a state, for one can be within the world as we live it without being affected by the time in which it lies - hence God can affect the owrld, be part of the world, but remains true to his eternal state. He is in the world, but remains outside of time's effects. On this particular matter i owuld be very interested in reading comments from those amongst you who know mroe than I (and I know there's plenty of you out there!).

*takes off thinking cap, reaches for his coffee*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1570484' date='Jun 13 2008, 09:39 AM']So even eternity is created by God?[/quote]

Time was created by God, eternity is the state in which god resides and thus always existed as God always existed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Madtown Sem.

[quote name='Didacus' post='1570573' date='Jun 13 2008, 12:01 PM']This poses the question; eternity is state of being or a place?[/quote]


place, no. eternity is a quality of the immaterial realm, so calling it a place falls short imo. state? eeehh, maybe, seems a bit closer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[url="http://www.uky.edu/~dbradsh/papers/Christian%20Approach%20to%20Phil%20of%20Time.pdf"][u]Time and Eternity in the Greek Fathers: A Christian Approach to the Philosophy of Time[/u][/url]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LouisvilleFan

[quote name='Didacus' post='1570573' date='Jun 13 2008, 02:01 PM']I believe you are mistaken, or the thought is somewhat incomplete.[/quote]

Hmm... given the two choices, it must be an incomplete thought... :)

[quote name='Didacus' post='1570573' date='Jun 13 2008, 02:01 PM']I believe you state 'there cannot be a point IN TIME at which time did not exist. There can be however, a state in existence which remains unaffected by time and this state of course, is eternity - outside of time, outside of change, not within time. This can be expressed in many ways but the one invariable truth is that eternity is that which is not affected by time, or that lies outside of time.[/quote]

What I was saying is simply that time is the series of these "points." We can't talk about some "point" in eternity because there's no such thing. It would be more accurate to describe eternity as a state of being, but I wouldn't even say that, as explained here:

[quote name='Didacus' post='1570573' date='Jun 13 2008, 02:01 PM']This poses the question; eternity is state of being or a place?[/quote]

I'm not sure that eternity must be either of these. Of course, this all depends on your definition of a "state of being" and whether it leaves room for eternity, but my thought is states of being and places both are elements of Creation and thus eternity is neither. Eternity, like God, simply is. Of course, God is also a personal and loving being, but he did not create eternity any more than he created infinity. Both are simply concepts that belong more to philosophy than science since they cannot be studied and observed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LouisvilleFan

I've been reading this article published back in 1994-95 (in two parts) titled [url="http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html"]Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God[/url] that touches on many of the ideas we're talking about here. Makes me want to read "A Brief History in Time." Nothing like some light summer reading, eh? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1571886' date='Jun 15 2008, 01:46 PM']Eternity, like God, simply is. Of course, God is also a personal and loving being, but he did not create eternity any more than he created infinity.[/quote]

Can it be possible that eternity does not exist at all since it is a concept of negation; it is the absence of time?

Like darkness is the absence of light but does not exist as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A similar problem with this, and maybe Did's post will help resolve this. If God is 'within' eternity, at what point did God begin creating the world. Obviously there is a problem here; In a timeless eternity we have creation beginning.

Unless of course God is 'always' creating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...