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The Devil A Murderer And Liar From The Beginning


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#1 saved by grace

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 05:46 PM

Jesus said that the devil "was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

This being the case how was he Gods favorite angel if he was a liar and murderer from the beginning ?
It is said that Satan was Gods most precious, beautiful and perfect angel. He was flawless and faultless from the day of his creation, until unrighteousness was found in him.

How is this true when Jesus says that from the beginning he was a murderer ?

Edited by saved by grace, 21 July 2008 - 05:47 PM.


#2 CatherineM

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 07:12 PM

There are some who believe that Ted Bundy or Charles Manson were evil from birth, but it took time for them to kill for the first time.

#3 saved by grace

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 07:17 PM

Mediators of Meh please move this if you feel it should be moved to the question and answer thread or the serious spirtual board. i may have posted in the wrong place ?

#4 Selah

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 07:51 PM

I agree with Catherine. He may have been God's most beloved angel, but the intentions of his heart were evil from the beginning.

#5 rkwright

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:18 PM

As I understand angels... They are created and given one choice, to serve or not. So Satan was created, chose not to serve from the beginning, and was cast out.

#6 Paddington

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 09:30 PM

There are some who believe that Ted Bundy or Charles Manson were evil from birth, but it took time for them to kill for the first time.


But, we can't tell children "I don't know if you're evil or not. Time will tell."

#7 Augustine

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 10:52 PM

A good question saved by grace. God cannot make anything that is not good, and I don't see how anything can be that is not from God. I wonder if your question was not also going through the minds of the Jews as Jesus spoke to them.

Maybe we can glean some truth from this passage by looking back upon Satan's fall.

"Son of man, utter a lament over the king of Tyre, saying to him: Thus says the Lord GOD: You were stamped with the seal of perfection, of complete wisdom and perfect beauty. In Eden, the garden of God, you were, and every precious stone was your covering (carnelian, topaz, and beryl, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, garnet, and emerald); Of gold your pendants and jewels were made, on the day you were created. With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones. Blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, Until evil was found in you, the result of your far-flung trade; violence was your business, and you sinned. Then I banned you from the mountain of God; the Cherub drove you from among the fiery stones. You became haughty of heart because of your beauty; for the sake of splendor you debased your wisdom. I cast you to the earth, so great was your guilt; I made you a spectacle in the sight of kings. Because of your guilt, your sinful trade, I have profaned your sanctuaries, And I have brought out fire from your midst which will devour you. I have reduced you to dust on the earth in the sight of all who should see you. Among the peoples, all who knew you stand aghast at you; You have become a horror, you shall be no more." (Ezekiel 28:12-19 NAB)

Satan, then, had not sinned until "evil was found" in him. Blameless, the Scriptures tell us. So how could be have been a lier and a murderer from the beginning? Well, the question rests upon the word "beginning," but then, there have been many beginnings and ends since the beginning of time. We begin and end things every day. Jesus, I believe, clues us in on which beginning he means. He calls Satan a lier and a murderer. If we look back to the garden of Eden, what does Satan say? "You surely will not die!'" (Genesis 3:1). In a way, Satan murdered mankind with his deceitfulness, as death entered into the world through man's fall. This is the beginning I believe Jesus meant.

http://www.jesusdevo...n-of-devil.html is a nice link for some more information on those verses. I must say I borrowed rather heavily from that article in formulating my conclusion to your question.

Edited by Augustine, 21 July 2008 - 10:53 PM.


#8 jmjtina

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 11:53 PM

Well, lets look at the context in which Jesus is speaking. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews who are about to stone him and accused him of being a demon. To which Jesus tells them that they don't understand because their father was the devil and a liar from the beginning. ( Jn 8:44) The beginning, I believe, is the beginning. Before man. Remember, Satan was a good angel. In the beginning. And he disobeyed God and was cast out of heaven, in the beginning. We have only to look at Genesis and the many things that happened "in the beginning."

Angels were created by and for the Son of God. (Colossians 1:16) They carry out God's orders and are attentive to his word. (Psalm 103: 20) They are his messengers of salvation. (Hebrews 1:14; CCC#331) Some angels began as good angels (Satan) but sinned. These angels cannot be pardoned because their choice against God is irrevocable the same as it is for humans who die. (CCC#393, 414). Thus, in the beginning, Lucifer and all that were with him were cast out of heaven. (St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us!)

The Late Holy Father said this:

When, by an act of his own free will, he rejected the truth that he knew about God, Satan became the cosmic "liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). For this reason, he lives in radical and irreversible denial of God and seeks to impose on creation — on the other beings created in the image of God and in particular on people — his own tragic "lie about the good" that is God.


"God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. For he has created all things that they might exist ... God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil's envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it" (Wis 1:13-14; 2:23-24).


Irenaeus

"The devil, however, since he is an apostate angel, is able, as he was in the beginning, to lead astray and to deceive the mind of man for the transgressing of God's commands. Little by little he can darken the hearts of those who would try to serve him, to the point that, forgetting the true God, they adore him as if he were God" (Against Heresies 5:24:3 [inter A.D. 180-199]).


and the website you linked us to Augustine, is not all in line with Catholic Church teachings. Just FYI and a precaution, unless of course your another denomination. And we had a discussion on the statement once, about how everything that God made is good, so where does that leave Satan? You can search it, it was a great thread and discussion.

hope that helps some.

Edited by jmjtina, 22 July 2008 - 12:16 AM.


#9 saved by grace

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 01:40 PM

thanks for the replys. very helpfull indeed.




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