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Are You Anti-obama Or Pro-mccain


toservelove

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Madame Vengier

And I want to scream every time someone says they aren't voting for Obama just because he's not pro-life.

There are DOZENS of other reasons not to vote for him. I wouldn't vote for him if he WAS pro-life. Not on my life I wouldn't.

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toservelove

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1609971' date='Jul 27 2008, 02:21 PM']There are DOZENS of other reasons not to vote for him. I wouldn't vote for him if he WAS pro-life. Not on my life I wouldn't.[/quote]

What would some of those other reasons be? For my part, I feel he is a lot of empty rhetoric, does not have enough experience, did not do a good job as a Senator in Illinois--for example, one of his low-cost housing projects ended up becoming pretty run down and appears to have been farmed out to supporters/ friends, his arms reduction stance is pure folly--Didn't the iron curtain come down? Why does he keep talking about Russia when the Middle East is of so much greater concern?

Anything else to add?

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='toservelove' post='1609996' date='Jul 27 2008, 01:54 PM']What would some of those other reasons be? For my part, I feel he is a lot of empty rhetoric, does not have enough experience, did not do a good job as a Senator in Illinois--for example, one of his low-cost housing projects ended up becoming pretty run down and appears to have been farmed out to supporters/ friends, his arms reduction stance is pure folly--Didn't the iron curtain come down? Why does he keep talking about Russia when the Middle East is of so much greater concern?

Anything else to add?[/quote]

His friendships with racists, anti-Semites, terrorist-panderers, and haters of America. I find this DEEPLY TROUBLING.

I'm not going to go into details. It's been covered here before.

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[quote name='picchick' post='1609908' date='Jul 27 2008, 12:51 PM']He has more respect for life because he does not support partial-birth abortion. I never said that he was total pro-life. I do not care for the man either. But I am saying that on the issue of life, he is a little better than Obama.[/quote]

McCain's stance on abortion is that he wants the issue back to the states. I have never heard what he says about the state's power over partial birth abortion, but until we do hear something about it, then how can we say he actually has [i]more[/i] respect for life?

[quote name='picchick' post='1609908' date='Jul 27 2008, 12:51 PM']You are correct that it is the unecessary taking of human life.[/quote]

i said that unjust war was the the unnecessary taking of [i]innocent[/i] human life.. KoC seems to believe there is a degree of innocence and he mentioned this in the thread where he compared Sen. Kennedy to Hitler. I just want to make sure everyone is aware of what my words were here.


[quote name='picchick' post='1609908' date='Jul 27 2008, 12:51 PM']However, it is not like abortion because the men who join the military join the military knowing full well the consequences of their actions. They know that in defending their country, it is a risk that their life will be ended. However, babies should not have to worry about their life being at risk just because they are living. There is a difference here.

Both are disrespectful to human life, one is more disrespectful.[/quote]

Collateral damage naturally occurs in every modern war. In an unnecessary war collateral damage is the unnecessary taking of innocent human life. It's not just the soldiers I'm referring to. I'm referring to innocent lives that are taken as a result of war.

I don't see the difference between one act of taking innocent human life and the other. (innocent lives during war and innocent lives during abortion)

The only difference I can see is when you apply them to political stances, where one candidate supports the "right" to abortion without restriction, and the other is just a war monger. In this case, we don't no for sure that innocent lives will be on the hands of the second candidate, but we know for sure that the first will be responsible for the lives of the unborn.

[quote name='picchick' post='1609908' date='Jul 27 2008, 12:51 PM']So all of a sudden if Obama were pro-life there would stances behind his promises? I think not. We see this with Ron Paul. He was pro-life. Yet he did not address issues that he was presented with. I doubt that Obama, if he were pro-life, would run on a Democratic ticket.[/quote]

Congressman Paul was never very pro-life. I don't know why folks couldn't see this. He as well just wanted the issue returned to the states. He's pro-Constitution, not pro-life. He always has been.

I never said 'if Obama were all of a sudden pro-life,' i said if he were pro-life period. I highly doubt that much of the mess he has gotten himself into would have ever come to be if he supported the right to life. I think that much of it is tied to his being a dirty politician, just like the most of them. If he were pro-life from the beginning of his poltical career, I would highly doubt he would have had so many nasty ties and would have been more of an honest politician. He would be going against some of the views of his party on a very important issue. Obviously he would be someone worth looking into, because we would know he standing on his own principles, not just pushing those of his party.

It's really nothing to argue about, since it's obviously not the case. I just believe that Obama would be a totally different man if he were pro-life.

Edited by Didymus
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[quote name='Didymus' post='1610095' date='Jul 27 2008, 03:53 PM']Congressman Paul was never very pro-life. I don't know why folks couldn't see this. He as well just wanted the issue returned to the states. He's pro-Constitution, not pro-life. He always has been.[/quote]
Yes, he basically holds the position of his former party, i.e., the Libertarian Party, on the issue of abortion.

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friendofJPII

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1610132' date='Jul 27 2008, 06:03 PM']Yes, he basically holds the position of his former party, i.e., the Libertarian Party, on the issue of abortion.[/quote]

in fact he voted against some key pro-life/family legislation because he felt the gov had no right to interfere on the federal level. He voted against the Marriage ammendment.

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[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1609969' date='Jul 27 2008, 02:19 PM']I'm not in favor of either. This entire voting year is an utter disaster and no matter which candidate wins America is going to get *delivered a huge package of FAIL.

*Thanks to KoC for that turn of phrase.[/quote]

Agreed. :(

[quote name='toservelove' post='1609996' date='Jul 27 2008, 02:54 PM']What would some of those other reasons be? For my part, I feel he is a lot of empty rhetoric, does not have enough experience, did not do a good job as a Senator in Illinois--for example, one of his low-cost housing projects ended up becoming pretty run down and appears to have been farmed out to supporters/ friends, his arms reduction stance is pure folly--Didn't the iron curtain come down? Why does he keep talking about Russia when the Middle East is of so much greater concern?

Anything else to add?[/quote]



He is also in favor of socialized health care (i.e. huge increases in taxes and reduction in quality and efficiency of care), of pulling the troops out of Iraq right away (I'm personally against the initiation of the war, but now that we're there we can't just leave. we gotta take responsibility for our actions), of catering to environmental groups and supporting anti-global warming legislation (which in my mind is a load of bunk... just another way to control our lives), to name a few. He and I disagree in almost every single issue.

As far as illegal immigrants, though, I think that we should grant them amnesty but not give them some government services (which some people ARE in favor of). That's the only big issue I have with the candidate I am supporting (Chuck Baldwin), but you'll never find the perfect candidate.

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[quote name='toservelove' post='1609802' date='Jul 27 2008, 09:06 AM']I keep hearing lots of anit-Obama things, some of it bordering on slander and calumniation. Some truth, some empty rhetoric. I see Obama '08 signs in house windows, on t-shirts, hats, bumper stickers--you name it. But, I hardly see anything about McCain. I can't find a bumper sticker. I haven't even seen a billboard or yard sign for him. And, in all this talk about why Obama should NOT be president, I hear very little about why McCain should be president. So, can you give me some positives about McCain--facts that I could use in conversation. I want something like Obama's stance is X, but McCains is Y and it's better because....OR Obama says X and McCain says Y--I think they're both wrong because...Thanks[/quote]

As it went down to the line, from both parties, all I could say, both to myself as well as aloud, "is this the best the US has to offer.." regarding candidates.

As for Obama, what scares me, and I am in the advertising field (creative) is how he is being marketed like a product. Furthermore, I have not seen such propaganda around one person since seeing posters and literature during Hitlers rise to power. Never thought I would see this in my lifetime.

Obama is for everything a Catholic is aganst. His "faith" is grounded in black liberation theology (any of you guys who have ever been to NYC, you will see them screaming in the streets how "whites are the devil." Their belief is that Jesus was black, they are the Israelites and whites must be killed. So his "christian" faith is non-existent. I worry for more than taxes or gay agendas being forwarded, but knowing that late-term abortion will become the norm under him as it did Clinton.

People are looking to the wrong place for something to believe in, as most Obama supporters look at the Bible as a book full of hate speech.

I would love to say that I am Pro-McCain, but the truth is I am Anti-Obama.

Edited by StMichael
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I'm no fan of McCain (he's not a true conservative), and this is the most dreary and depressing presidential campaign of my lifetime, but I definitely believe McCain to be the lesser evil to Obama.

[quote name='Didymus' post='1610095' date='Jul 27 2008, 04:53 PM']McCain's stance on abortion is that he wants the issue back to the states. I have never heard what he says about the state's power over partial birth abortion, but until we do hear something about it, then how can we say he actually has [i]more[/i] respect for life?[/quote]

[quote]Congressman Paul was never very pro-life. I don't know why folks couldn't see this. He as well just wanted the issue returned to the states. He's pro-Constitution, not pro-life. He always has been.[/quote]
While I'd certainly be in favor of a Human Life Amendment, I definitely think overturning the judicial monstrosity that is Roe v. Wade, and returning the power to the states would be a huge step in the right direction (as well as probably the only politically feasible choice right now).

As shown by his endorsement of the "Freedom of Choice Act" (which would essentially bar any state restrictions on abortion) and his pro-infanticide votes against the partial-birth abortion ban and against the Infants Born Alive Protection Act in the Illinois state senate, Obama has made it clear that he opposes any restrictions whatever on baby-killing.

Certainly returning the rights to the states, and having the possibility of unborn infants being protected in some states is preferable to perpetuating abortion-on-demand as the universal law of the land as Obama would do.

Didy, you've repeatedly made your opposition to anything and everything conservative, Republican, or libertarian quite clear this year, yet you've never really made it clear what you would actually advocate that voters do. You've given a lot of negativism with no direction for positive action.

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I definitely believe that returning the issue to the states is a huge step in our favor. We need to overturn Roe v. Wade, and we will.

But what I had been responding to was the comment that McCain actually [i]respects[/i] life more than Obama, and I have yet to see any evidence for that. We as pro-lifers can benefit from him being in office for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has a respect for life in the womb.

In these days of strong central government, most any conservative/libertarian candidate can help the pro-life movement to an extent. But let's take them for what they're worth. Most libertarians don't seem too in favor of a human life amendment (btw, does Paul support one?)

I am not pro-McCain by any means (obviously) but I will most probably end up voting for him or a third party candidate (depending on who the veep is), and I would expect anyone serious about the pro-life movement to do the same, especially with the justices that the next pres will most probably be replacing.

In response to my supposed lack of suggesting 'positive action,' I have done it quite a few times on different sites and only been received with hostility.

I really really support the efforts of the [url="http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45"]95-10 Initiative[/url], but I unfortunately haven't heard any news on it lately. Till it starts being put into work, I believe we must still hold onto our pro-life values first and foremost while within the voting booth.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1610226' date='Jul 27 2008, 08:05 PM']As far as illegal immigrants, though, I think that we should grant them amnesty[/quote]

Without knowing who they are? Can you imagine finger-printing and doing background checks on 12 million illegal aliens? I don't know HOW that is ever going to happen. But one thing is for sure, we CANNOT grant auto-amnesty to 12 million illegals without knowing who they are.

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[quote name='Didymus' post='1610383' date='Jul 27 2008, 11:24 PM']In response to my supposed lack of suggesting 'positive action,' I have done it quite a few times on different sites and only been received with hostility.[/quote]
Have you suggested it on Phatmass?

[quote]I really really support the efforts of the [url="http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45"]95-10 Initiative[/url], but I unfortunately haven't heard any news on it lately. Till it starts being put into work, I believe we must still hold onto our pro-life values first and foremost while within the voting booth.[/quote]
That looks like generally a good initiative (at least a better spending of our tax dollars than many other things). I'm afraid pro-life Dems are going to face a long uphill battle, though, especially with their own party in power (whose leaders are determined to keep it the Party of Death).

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