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Dave

Holy Water Isn't Holy Water?!

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Dave
Ok, here's something I hadn't heard before until just the other night. I was told that in the new rite of blessing holy water, since prayers of exorcism aren't used, then the water is really just blessed water and not holy water (strange, I thought anything blessed was, by definition, holy). The distinction was explained to me like this -- when saying the blessing before meals, a priest may make the sign of the cross over the food and drink. Well, if the drink being served is water, then the water would become blessed, but that in itself wouldn't make it holy water per se (one doesn't drink holy water, after all). I was also told that if exorcisms are performed, then even the most liberal bishops have been known to contact FSSP or other traditional priests in order to obtain "true" holy water to use during the course of the exorcisms.

So now I'm confused. I really have a hard time believing that, if I go to a Novus Ordo parish, that the water I dip my fingers in and cross myself with is somehow less holy than that blessed in a TLM parish. Also, the last time I refilled my holy water bottle, it was at a Novus Ordo parish. So the stuff in my holy water bottle isn't all that holy???

I find these claims impossible to swallow, and some input would be appreciated. But please, I need EVIDENCE here and not merely glib statements like, "That's just traditionalist propaganda."

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TeresaBenedicta
As a sacristan, I have to make sure that the holy water fonts are filled and that the water put into them is blessed... Whenever I have Monsignor bless the water, he always takes out the prayer book and there's a specific prayer for blessing the water to make it holy water. Not just a blessing "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".

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Dave
[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1628970' date='Aug 16 2008, 04:45 PM']As a sacristan, I have to make sure that the holy water fonts are filled and that the water put into them is blessed... Whenever I have Monsignor bless the water, he always takes out the prayer book and there's a specific prayer for blessing the water to make it holy water. Not just a blessing "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".[/quote]

Ok, I just looked up holy water on Wikipedia, and it showed an actual prayer for blessing holy water ... but it also mentioned exorcism of water:

[quote]The rite of blessing takes place during the Easter Vigil in preparation for baptism. Holy water can also be blessed on any day as part of the baptismal rite; the same prayer of blessing is used.

RITE OF BLESSING Father, You give us grace through sacramental signs, which tell us of the wonders of Your unseen power. In baptism we use Your gift of water, which You have made a rich symbol of the grace You give us in this sacrament. At the very dawn of creation, Your Spirit breathed on the waters, making them the wellspring of all holiness. The waters of the great flood You made a sign of the waters of baptism, that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness. Through the waters of the Red Sea, You led Israel out of slavery, to be an image of God's holy people, set free from sin by baptism. In the waters of the Jordan, Your Son was baptized by John and anointed with the Spirit. Your Son willed that water and blood should flow from His side as He hung upon the cross. After His resurrection, He told His disciples: "Go out and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Father, look now with love upon Your Church, and unseal for her the fountain of baptism. By the power of the Spirit give to the water of this font the grace of your Son. You created man in Your own likeness: cleanse him from sin in a new birth of innocence by water and the Spirit. We ask You, Father, with Your Son to send the Holy Spirit upon the waters of this font. May all who are buried with Christ in the death of baptism rise also with Him to newness of life. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Once blessed, more ordinary water can be added to the supply of holy water, and the entire quantity of water remains blessed provided that the amount added is less than the amount of water that was there.

The ritual of preparing holy water is itself in form an exorcism; the priest first exorcises the salt, and then the water itself; the traditional Latin formula for exorcising and blessing the water is:

Exorcizo te, creatura aquæ, in nomine Dei Patris omnipotentis, et in nomine Jesu Christi, Filii ejus Domini nostri, et in virtute Spiritus Sancti: ut fias aqua exorcizata ad effugandam omnem potestatem inimici, et ipsum inimicum eradicare et explantare valeas cum angelis suis apostaticis, per virtutem ejusdem Domini nostri Jesu Christ: qui venturus est judicare vivos et mortuos et sæculum per ignem.

(I exorcise thee in the name of God the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus Christ His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Ghost, that you may be able to put to flight all the power of the enemy, and be able to root out and supplant that enemy and his apostate angels; through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will come to judge the living and the dead and the world by fire.)

Deus, qui ad salutem humani generis maxima quæque sacramenta in aquarum substantia condidisti: adesto propitius invocationibus nostris, et elemento huic, multimodis purificationibus præparato, virtutem tuæ benedictionis infunde; ut creatura tua, mysteriis tuis serviens, ad abigendos dæmones morbosque pellendos divinæ gratiæ sumat effectum; ut quidquid in domibus vel in locis fidelium hæc unda resperserit careat omni immunditia, liberetur a noxa. Non illic resideat spiritus pestilens, non aura corrumpens: discedant omnes insidiæ latentis inimici; et si quid est quod aut incolumitati habitantium invidet aut quieti, aspersione hujus aquæ effugiat: ut salubritas, per invocationem sancti tui nominis expetita, ab omnibus sit impugnationibus defensa. Per Dominum, amen.

(God, Who for the salvation of the human race has built your greatest mysteries upon this substance, in your kindness hear our prayers and pour down the power of your blessing into this element, prepared by many purifications. May this your creation be a vessel of divine grace to dispel demons and sicknesses, so that everything that it is sprinkled on in the homes and buildings of the faithful will be rid of all unclean and harmful things. Let no pestilent spirit, no corrupting atmosphere, remain in those places: may all the schemes of the hidden enemy be dispelled. Let whatever might trouble the safety and peace of those who live here be put to flight by this water, so that health, gotten by calling Your holy name, may be made secure against all attacks. Through the Lord, amen.)[/quote]

Note the passage about exorcising holy water. I guess what I'm asking is, would a Novus Ordo priest still say an exorcism prayer over the water, even if only in private? If so, that would render bogus those claims of holy water at Novus Ordo parishes not having been exorcised.

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TeresaBenedicta
[quote name='Dave' post='1629013' date='Aug 16 2008, 04:15 PM']Ok, I just looked up holy water on Wikipedia, and it showed an actual prayer for blessing holy water ... but it also mentioned exorcism of water:



Note the passage about exorcising holy water. I guess what I'm asking is, would a Novus Ordo priest still say an exorcism prayer over the water, even if only in private? If so, that would render bogus those claims of holy water at Novus Ordo parishes not having been exorcised.[/quote]

The 'exorcism' prayer is the one I heard the priest using for the blessing of the water, if I remember correctly.

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Nihil Obstat
Gabriele Amorth talks about things used in exorcisms...
Specifically, he mentions exorcised salt, oil, and, you guessed it, water.
The way I understood it, exorcised water is blessed differently. It's not that holy water isn't holy water, it's just that it's not specifically exorcised water.
I'm no authority though. :)
Gabriele Amorth is.
"An Exorcist Tells His Story"
and
"An Exorcist: More Stories"

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Resurrexi
[quote name='Lil Red' post='1629350' date='Aug 16 2008, 09:35 PM']+J.M.J.+
don't trust wikipedia. i'm just sayin'[/quote]

:yes:

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MissScripture
[quote name='Dave' post='1628965' date='Aug 16 2008, 02:35 PM'](one doesn't drink holy water, after all).[/quote]
Actually, I have heard of people drinking Holy Water, but I'm not quite sure why...

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Nihil Obstat
[quote name='MissScripture' post='1630064' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:13 PM']Actually, I have heard of people drinking Holy Water, but I'm not quite sure why...[/quote]
I know with exorcised water they will in some cases trick the patient into drinking it, to see if there is any violent reaction. (Violent reaction, of course, if the person didn't know it was holy or exorcised water, would indicate a demon.)
Same sort of idea when Fr. Amorth says he blessed and sprinkled with holy (exorcised) water all of the possibly possessed person's clothing. They wouldn't wear them. Just refused. Didn't even know why, but wouldn't wear them.
I'm waaaay off topic though.
I read something about drinking holy water as a legitimate way of disposing of it... or am I imagining that?

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MissScripture
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1630301' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:46 PM']I know with exorcised water they will in some cases trick the patient into drinking it, to see if there is any violent reaction. (Violent reaction, of course, if the person didn't know it was holy or exorcised water, would indicate a demon.)
Same sort of idea when Fr. Amorth says he blessed and sprinkled with holy (exorcised) water all of the possibly possessed person's clothing. They wouldn't wear them. Just refused. Didn't even know why, but wouldn't wear them.
I'm waaaay off topic though.
I read something about drinking holy water as a legitimate way of disposing of it... or am I imagining that?[/quote]
I just remember a while back that there was some contaminated water that was used for Holy Water, and they had to get rid of it, because they didn't want people drinking it (and the article I was reading specifically said that people would). I'm assuming it was just the "regular" Holy Water, but :idontknow:

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Nihil Obstat
[quote name='MissScripture' post='1630982' date='Aug 18 2008, 06:25 PM']I just remember a while back that there was some contaminated water that was used for Holy Water, and they had to get rid of it, because they didn't want people drinking it (and the article I was reading specifically said that people would). I'm assuming it was just the "regular" Holy Water, but :idontknow:[/quote]
I'm sure there are reasons to drink "regular" holy water as well. I just don't know them. :)
We need one of them Church Scholars to set us straight. :D

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Aloysius
all holy water is supposed to contain blessed/exorcised salt, I believe. though I have heard they don't always put it in anymore, but I believe they are supposed to.

if the holy water were not exorcised, it would most certainly be different than holy water that is exorcised. I know for sure that it is all exorcised in the Extraordinary Form, does anyone have a novus ordo Roman Ritual that contains the prayers for blessing holy water? if they do not exorcise it, I cannot help but say it is different than exorcised holy water. I have heard before that the exorcism prayers were removed or at least highly streamlined, but I don't know for sure. thinking to the Easter Vigils I've gone to in Novus Ordo parishes, I don't think I recall hearing exorcism prayers.

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Nihil Obstat
[quote name='Aloysius' post='1631409' date='Aug 19 2008, 01:31 AM']all holy water is supposed to contain blessed/exorcised salt, I believe. though I have heard they don't always put it in anymore, but I believe they are supposed to.

if the holy water were not exorcised, it would most certainly be different than holy water that is exorcised. I know for sure that it is all exorcised in the Extraordinary Form, does anyone have a novus ordo Roman Ritual that contains the prayers for blessing holy water? if they do not exorcise it, I cannot help but say it is different than exorcised holy water. I have heard before that the exorcism prayers were removed or at least highly streamlined, but I don't know for sure. thinking to the Easter Vigils I've gone to in Novus Ordo parishes, I don't think I recall hearing exorcism prayers.[/quote]
Keeping this in mind, I think I'm out of my league. :D
All I know is that Gabriele Amorth seemed to make a distinction between 'exorcisted water' and 'holy water'.
Past that, I have no knowledge. :)
Luckily I have an excuse; I'm young. :D Hah.

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