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dairygirl4u2c

Palin

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T-Bone _
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660401' date='Sep 20 2008, 11:15 PM'][b]I'm personally against hunting[/b][/quote]

Do you eat meat?

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Tinkerlina
[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1660629' date='Sep 21 2008, 06:52 PM']knight's tone seems like... "it's not binding on anyone. the hunting is needed, therefore you're pretty much objectively wrong, but go ahead and think what you want. you're entitled to your opinion."
while i disagree with tinker, i can totally see what she thinks. i personally don't see hunting from a plane as a big deal, but i can see how it's seen as unfair and unethical. the oppositino certainly deserves more credit here than knight is conveying.
i can see how knight might plausibly be hard line on it... but it's like he's hard line on so much he loses his credibility.





that's a nice way to dodge the issue (which is usually how the religious rationalizaers tackle this issue. the fact they're dodging it,,,, and not willing to concede that they're essentially arguing that they'd be willing ot allow people to die just shows to show they are rationalizers and probably don't really believe what they say). i concede it wouldn't be very often that you'd have the chance to talk mitigation into someone,,, but it's plausible, and therefore not talking mitigation when you had the chance, would be morally wrong.
it's just an analogy anyways, the point is soemtimes you gotta do what's normamly wrong for the greater good.

allowing millions to die instead of beating up the person who knows the info,,, is morally wrong. while i just knocked knight for being a hardliner.... i htink this situation warrants being a hardliners on- it's morally wrong no if's and's or but's.
i can see how you'd have diffuculty with the issue.... it's analogous to, who likes to shoot someone in a just war? no one,,, it'd feel bad, but it's the morally right thing to do. feelings are not the basis here--- rationality is. oding that wrongness i described is morally wrong, and irrational.[/quote]


Yeah, there are definitely no easy answers to any of these questions and I don't believe there is necessarily a true objective right or wrong that we can pinpoint with regard to the aerial hunting. The issue could possibly be justified but all of the criteria for justification fall under the umbrella of opinion and I don't think I can be called objectively wrong any more than anyone else can be objectively right. That's why we debate and discuss these things, because they aren't necessarily set in stone. And I think you're right on the hardliners-sometimes we need people to take the hardline and sometimes we need to take it ourselves. -Katie

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T-Bone _
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660661' date='Sep 21 2008, 05:22 PM']Nope, I'm a vegan :)[/quote]

Good, at least you're not a hypocrite.

Meat eaters who are against hunting annoy me to no end. If you're not willing to get your hands dirty...

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Tinkerlina
[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1660668' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:30 PM']Good, at least you're not a hypocrite.

Meat eaters who are against hunting annoy me to no end. If you're not willing to get your hands dirty...[/quote]

Yeah I agree it is hypocritical-I will say that I don't really support the idea of killing any living thing BUT huting for oneself is a lot less cruel than factory farms, which is where most meat comes from and I realize that many people throughout history had to hunt for food and did so in a respectful, non expoitative manner. My issue with Palin isn't hunting for food though. -Katie

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660445' date='Sep 21 2008, 09:00 AM']I'm willing to stop the debate as much as you are but please understand that I never insinuated in any way, shape or form that anyone was "bound" to my opinion-isn't the point of a thread like this to get a discussion going and give our opinions? No one reading or participating in this is bound to my, your or anyone else's opinion-the topic of the thread is Palin and I came here to throw in my two cents just like everyone else, nothing more. -Katie[/quote]

I think I took the your wanting politicians with your views in office as a binding thing. Politicians with those views would enact laws to force us to submit to their views.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660661' date='Sep 21 2008, 06:22 PM']Nope, I'm a vegan :)[/quote]

Vegan or not a living thing must still suffer and die for you to eat. Some vegans I've talk to have not understood this... just making a point that in the end whether vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater, some living thing must suffer and die so we may live, it is a fact of life no way around it, and in this way we are all the same.

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Tinkerlina
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1660673' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:38 PM']I think I took the your wanting politicians with your views in office as a binding thing. Politicians with those views would enact laws to force us to submit to their views.

I just try to find politicians who represent me as best as possible like the rest of us hopefully do.


Vegan or not a living thing must still suffer and die for you to eat. Some vegans I've talk to have not understood this... just making a point that in the end whether vegan, vegetarian, or meat eater, some living thing must suffer and die so we may live, it is a fact of life no way around it, and in this way we are all the same.[/quote]

Well, obviously I can't prevent accidentally stepping on ants, etc, but for me being vegan is avoiding as much cruelty as possible. And yes, plants are technically killed for food but I have no reason to believe that suffering is involved as plants do not have central nervous systems. I'm not hatin' on meat eaters and like I said hunting in general isn't my issue with Palin.

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660679' date='Sep 21 2008, 07:44 PM']Well, obviously I can't prevent accidentally stepping on ants, etc, but for me being vegan is avoiding as much cruelty as possible. And yes, plants are technically killed for food but I have no reason to believe that suffering is involved as plants do not have central nervous systems. I'm not hatin' on meat eaters and like I said hunting in general isn't my issue with Palin.[/quote]

I know your not knocking meat eaters it's cool... but[url="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_a_plant_feel_pain_without_a_nervous_system"]all living things feel some type of pain even plants[/url], other wise the body of the living thing would not attempt to heal itself. This is a really bad joke but at least the hunters don't eat their prey while it is alive and kills his food before eating it, well most hunters, civilized ones anyway... :topsy:

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Tinkerlina
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1660685' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:55 PM']I know your not knocking meat eaters it's cool... but[url="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_a_plant_feel_pain_without_a_nervous_system"]all living things feel some type of pain even plants[/url], other wise the body of the living thing would not attempt to heal itself. This is a really bad joke but at least the hunters don't eat their prey while it is alive and kills his food before eating it, well most hunters, civilized ones anyway... :topsy:[/quote]

I don't know, that says it's based on a study and I have little faith in studies. I really have not seen clear and convincing evidence that plants can suffer or feel emotion whereas animals definitely do. I just have to live the best I can :)

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princessgianna
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660687' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:00 PM']I don't know, that says it's based on a study and I have little faith in studies. I really have not seen clear and convincing evidence that plants can suffer or feel emotion whereas animals definitely do. I just have to live the best I can :)[/quote]
ok i have to give u that! Studies can be pretty vague but still plants are a living thing! though you are right we all have to live to be the best we can be!

some things we really have to fight like abortion and killing innocent life
and others aren't so big like this conversation right now!
anyway thanks for stating your opinion for we do have a obligation to take care of this great earth God gave us!

pax~ :D

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660687' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:00 PM']I don't know, that says it's based on a study and I have little faith in studies. I really have not seen clear and convincing evidence that plants can suffer or feel emotion whereas animals definitely do. I just have to live the best I can :)[/quote]

Emotion is another thing, many scientist deny animals have emotions. But a plant is a living being, which reacts to its environment. A plant will grow from a shadowy place into a sunny place, such as a tree or flower, also a plant which has been wounded will heal itself or attempt to this could not happen if not for some type of 'feel of touch' or senses from the plant. Also if we want to get technical it cannot be objectively proven that human beings feel pain, let alone plants.

Also nonhuman living things have some type of lower form of soul, even plants. Edited by KnightofChrist

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Tinkerlina
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1660698' date='Sep 21 2008, 09:20 PM']Emotion is another thing, many scientist deny animals have emotions. But a plant is a living being, which reacts to its environment. A plant will grow from a shadowy place into a sunny place, such as a tree or flower, also a plant which has been wounded will heal itself or attempt to this could not happen if not for some type of 'feel of touch' or senses from the plant. Also if we want to get technical it cannot be objectively proven that human beings feel pain, let alone plants.

Also nonhuman living things have some type of lower form of soul, even plants.[/quote]

Scientists who deny animals have emotions are scientist who lack emotion themselves. I do not deny that plants react to their environment but I've never seen any evidence of a plant in pain but I have seen plenty of animals suffer. Actually, if we're going all out cold logic, a ton of grain is grown to feed animals raised for meat, eggs and dariy and so by being a vegan I'm actually helping plants too. But anyway, I don't see that this particular argument is really relevant to Palin as my problems with her centered around aerial hunting which is not killing animals for food. So I'll keep on being vegan you stop sell your idea of not eating veggies to children worldwide much to their delight and their parents' chagrin ;) Edited by Tinkerlina

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KnightofChrist
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660714' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:29 PM']Scientists who deny animals have emotions are scientist who lack emotion themselves.[/quote]


Well couldn't someone make a similar emotional statement about those that deny plants feel pain?

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660714' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:29 PM']I do not deny that plants react to their environment but I've never seen any evidence of a plant in pain but I have seen plenty of animals suffer.[/quote]


I have, cutting down trees they slowing wither away and die, you can just see the live flow out of them. The tree appears to suffer, for a tree anyway. There's really no way for you to know 100% that plants do not feel pain. I gather that they do, because they do react to their eviorment, and are after all living things.

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1660714' date='Sep 21 2008, 08:29 PM']Actually, if we're going all out cold logic, a ton of grain is grown to feed animals raised for meat, eggs and dariy and so by being a vegan I'm actually helping plants too. But anyway, I don't see that this particular argument is really relevant to Palin as my problems with her centered around aerial hunting which is not killing animals for food. So I'll keep on being vegan you stop sell your idea of not eating veggies to children worldwide much to their delight and their parents' chagrin ;)[/quote]

My mother always made me eat my veggies and I did, I love'em and meat too. But yeah this is way off topic.

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Norseman82
Number one...the larch....

[img]http://www.flowerphotographer.net/roth/attributes/bigimages/golden%20larch.jpg[/img]



The larch....



The laaaaaarch....






(Monty Python)

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jckinsman
[quote name='Norseman82' post='1660913' date='Sep 22 2008, 12:32 AM']Number one...the larch....

[img]http://www.flowerphotographer.net/roth/attributes/bigimages/golden%20larch.jpg[/img]



The larch....



The laaaaaarch....






(Monty Python)[/quote]
Very Funny :biglol:

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