Implementation Of Tridentine Ruling Frustrates Some

[mortify]

[b]Mixed reviews: Implementation of Tridentine ruling frustrates some[/b]
VATICAN LETTER Sep-19-2008 (1,110 words) Backgrounder. xxxi
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804776.htm"][u]Link to article[/u][/url]

[color="#0000FF"]VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- A year after Pope Benedict XVI opened the way to wider use of the Tridentine Mass, implementation of the papal directive is drawing mixed reviews from its target audience.

Catholic traditionalists remain grateful for the pope's document and say it has given them a certain legitimacy in local church communities, as well as greater practical access to the old rite.

But some -- backed by a Vatican official -- have complained that bishops and pastors continue to place obstacles in the way of groups seeking the Tridentine liturgy.

On a long-term issue, traditionalists are pleased at new efforts to instruct priests in celebrating Mass in the older rite. Meanwhile, those who envisioned Tridentine Masses popping up in every parish are somewhat frustrated.

"We're only looking at one calendar year, and we know that in the church these things take time. But the problem -- dare anyone say this? -- the problem is the bishops. Because you have bishops who aren't on board," said John Paul Sonnen, an American Catholic who lives in Rome.

Sonnen and about 150 others attended a small but significant conference in Rome in mid-September on the theme: "'Summorum Pontificum': One Year After."

"Summorum Pontificum" was the title of the pope's 2007 apostolic letter that said Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Roman Missal, commonly known as the Tridentine rite, should be made available in every parish where groups of the faithful desire it. In his letter, the pope said the Mass from the Roman Missal in use since 1970 remains the ordinary form of the Mass, while celebration of the Tridentine Mass is the extraordinary form.

The response to the papal letter varied around the world. In the United States, many bishops -- even those not enthusiastic about the new policy -- took steps to explain it to their faithful and put it into practice.

But in Europe and Latin America, conference participants said, there's been less favorable reaction.

"In Italy, with just a few admirable exceptions, the bishops have put obstacles in the way of applying ('Summorum Pontificum')," Msgr. Camille Perl told the Rome conference.

"I would have to say the same thing about the major superiors of religious orders who forbid their priests from celebrating Mass in the old rite," Msgr. Perl said.

Msgr. Perl is vice president of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei," which oversees implementation of the papal document, so his words carried weight. Italian newspapers reported his comments under the headline "The bishops are boycotting the pope."

Two Brazilian priests attending the conference complained that they're facing a similar situation in their country.

"I think there's a great desire on the part of young priests to learn the older rite. But we don't study it in seminaries, and the bishops don't cooperate on that," said Father Giuseppe Olivera of Sao Paolo.

Msgr. Perl said letters received by his commission indicate considerable interest in setting up local Tridentine Masses in France, Great Britain, Canada, the United States and Australia. He said there have been fewer requests for the older Mass in Latin America, Africa and Asia.

Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who heads the "Ecclesia Dei" commission, said recently that Pope Benedict would eventually like to see the Tridentine rite offered in every parish. But for now, in the pope's own Diocese of Rome, a single church, Santissima Trinita dei Pellegrini, has been designated as a "personal parish" for traditionalists.

That's a solution that appeals to some dioceses, especially those that include large cities, but it tends to separate traditionalists from other local parishes. It also seems to put bishops in charge of the decision of where and when a Tridentine Mass is offered, instead of the local pastor, as indicated by "Summorum Pontificum."

Father Joseph Kramer, pastor at Rome's Santissima Trinita church, said that so far his parish is attracting a lot of younger people and those over 50, but not many in between and few young families.

In general, he said, it's important for traditionalist Catholics to make it clear that they accept the changes of the Second Vatican Council, in order not to frighten off "normal" Catholics who might be attracted to the older rite.

U.S. Father John Zuhlsdorf runs a blog -- "What Does the Prayer Really Say?" -- that's become a sounding board for reaction to "Summorum Pontificum" among traditionalist Catholics.

One recent comment on the blog began: "Frankly, I'm sick and tired. Tired of waiting. 'Summorum Pontificum' has been in force for one year now and, in spite of the fact that I live in a huge metropolitan area, there is no TLM (traditional Latin Mass) to which I can go" without driving at least an hour.

Father Zuhlsdorf, who attended the Rome conference, said he understands some of these frustrations but takes a generally positive view of the first year of "Summorum Pontificum."

One good thing, he said, is that the papal directive has deeply affected priests, especially younger priests, and their perception of "who they are at the altar." As time goes on and older priests and bishops retire, this interest will have a ripple effect on parish life, he said.

Another plus is that resources for the older rite, including beautifully bound missals, are being produced and published. These could appeal to Catholics and "help change the culture of participating at Mass," Father Zuhlsdorf said.

In addition, he said, some U.S. seminaries are beginning to introduce courses in celebrating the Tridentine rite. Private training programs for priests, workshops and Web sites also have been established.

He compared it to the Ford Motor Co. putting a new model into production.

"It takes a long time to construct the assembly plant, but once you get the thing built you can get the product out more quickly," he said.

In the more-to-be-done category, Father Zuhlsdorf said there are still some priests and bishops who have "a bit of a stingy attitude" about the legitimate requests of traditionalists.

He said Latin proficiency is an example of where a double standard seems to be used to create an obstacle to the wider offering of the older Mass. While it's true that a priest celebrating in Latin has to know what he's saying at the altar, he said, one could also ask about proficiency in English among priests coming from a foreign country to serve in the United States.

In any case, he said, the Code of Canon Law requires that all seminarians be well-trained in Latin. If that isn't being done today, seminary officials should be addressing the problem, he said.

END[/color]

[princessgianna]

[quote name='mortify' post='1660624' date='Sep 21 2008, 05:46 PM'][b]Mixed reviews: Implementation of Tridentine ruling frustrates some[/b]
VATICAN LETTER Sep-19-2008 (1,110 words) Backgrounder. xxxi
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804776.htm"][u]Link to article[/u][/url]
In any case, he said, the Code of Canon Law requires that all seminarians be well-trained in Latin. If that isn't being done today, seminary officials should be addressing the problem,[/quote]\

Wow the seminary in my town was lucky to finally started the seminarians to take 2 years of Latin! Like what are the people so afraid of???

people are so weird like my grandma absolutely refuses to go to a Latin Mass! Like she will NOT GO end of disscussion!!!

my Grandparents 50 anniversary is coming up and my mom was thinking how cool it would be if my grandparents do a Traditional Latin Mass since that was the formant of the Mass they were married in! My grandma got all defensive and was like "if you do that i won't come"! Like what are people so afraid of???

I of course mean no offense to the Novus Ordo Mass i sometimes go to that Mass but people are like so afraid of the traditional Mass!

i wonder why that is?

pax~

[mortify]

[philothea]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1660686' date='Sep 21 2008, 07:57 PM']people are so weird like my grandma absolutely refuses to go to a Latin Mass! Like she will NOT GO end of disscussion!!!

my Grandparents 50 anniversary is coming up and my mom was thinking how cool it would be if my grandparents do a Traditional Latin Mass since that was the formant of the Mass they were married in! My grandma got all defensive and was like "if you do that i won't come"! Like what are people so afraid of???

I of course mean no offense to the Novus Ordo Mass i sometimes go to that Mass but people are like so afraid of the traditional Mass!

i wonder why that is?[/quote]
I think it's hard for people who never experienced the church before Vatican II to appreciate how necessary the reforms were -- even if a lot of places ran too far with them.

As far as I understand, before V2, the church appeared very segregated, in that the laypeople were completely unimportant and uninvolved. Entirely second-class citizens. Only the clergy appeared to matter, and often even they hadn't been educated very well, and didn't know what they were saying.

V2 changed the perceived demeanor of the church from being distant, austere, and condemning, to a lot more interactive, welcoming, and compassionate. I can see why people who grew up pre V2 might not want to (apparently) "go back" to that. It's a misunderstanding, of course, but I can see why someone might feel that way.

[CatholicCid]

I like how they quoted Fr. Z lol.

Seems like they covered both ends of the spectra as well

[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804705.htm"]http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804705.htm[/url]

Cardinal: Some not satisfied even after pope's Tridentine Mass decree

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

[color="blue"]ROME (CNS) -- Rather than being grateful, some people have reacted to Pope Benedict XVI's wider permission for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass with further demands, said Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos.

The cardinal, president of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei," spoke Sept. 16 at a conference marking the first anniversary of "Summorum Pontificum," the document by which Pope Benedict expanded access to the Tridentine rite, the Mass rite used before the Second Vatican Council.

Cardinal Castrillon, whose commission works with communities using the old rite, said his office continues to receive letters requesting the Tridentine rite be used not just at one Mass a week but at every Mass, and that such Masses be available not just at one church in a town but at every church.

He said he even got a letter demanding that Rome's Basilica of St. Mary Major be dedicated exclusively to the celebration of the Tridentine-rite Mass.

Such people, he said, are "insatiable, incredible."

"They do not know the harm they are doing," Cardinal Castrillon said, adding that when the Vatican does not accept their demands immediately "they go directly to the Internet" and post their complaints.

The cardinal and officials in his office have been saying for more than a year now that they were preparing detailed instructions responding to questions about how to implement the papal document, which said the Mass in the new Roman Missal, introduced in 1970, remains the ordinary way of Catholic worship.

Asked about the status of those detailed instructions, Cardinal Castrillon told Catholic News Service that his office had completed its work and passed the draft on to the pope, who would make the final decision about its publication.

In addition to responding to the desire of Catholics who wanted more frequent and easier access to Mass celebrated in the old rite, the pope's 2007 document was seen as a major step toward reconciliation with the followers of the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated when he ordained four bishops against the express wishes of Pope John Paul II.

But the process of reconciliation broke down in late June when Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior of the Society of St. Pius X and one of the four bishops ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre, failed to meet four conditions posed by Cardinal Castrillon for moving the process forward.

"The Eucharist should never become a point of contrast and a point of separation," Cardinal Castrillon said at the Sept. 16 conference. "What is more important: the mystery of God who becomes bread or the language by which we celebrate the mystery?"

The cardinal said the Mass -- in whatever language it is celebrated -- must be a service motivated by love and "never a sword" used against other Christians.

By making it easier for priests to celebrate the older liturgy and for the faithful to have access to it, he said, "the vicar of Christ (the pope) was not just exercising his task of governing, but was exercising his task of sanctifying" the people of God.

"When we are before the greatest expression of love for humanity -- the Eucharist -- how can we fight?" Cardinal Castrillon asked.

END[/color]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='mortify' post='1660624' date='Sep 21 2008, 06:46 PM'][b]Mixed reviews: Implementation of Tridentine ruling frustrates some[/b]
VATICAN LETTER Sep-19-2008 (1,110 words) Backgrounder. xxxi
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804776.htm"][u]Link to article[/u][/url]

[color="#0000FF"]VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- A year after Pope Benedict XVI opened the way to wider use of the Tridentine Mass, implementation of the papal directive is drawing mixed reviews from its target audience.

Catholic traditionalists remain grateful for the pope's document and say it has given them a certain legitimacy in local church communities, as well as greater practical access to the old rite.

But some -- backed by a Vatican official -- have complained that bishops and pastors continue to place obstacles in the way of groups seeking the Tridentine liturgy.

On a long-term issue, traditionalists are pleased at new efforts to instruct priests in celebrating Mass in the older rite. Meanwhile, those who envisioned Tridentine Masses popping up in every parish are somewhat frustrated.

"We're only looking at one calendar year, and we know that in the church these things take time. But the problem -- dare anyone say this? -- the problem is the bishops. Because you have bishops who aren't on board," said John Paul Sonnen, an American Catholic who lives in Rome.

Sonnen and about 150 others attended a small but significant conference in Rome in mid-September on the theme: "'Summorum Pontificum': One Year After."

"Summorum Pontificum" was the title of the pope's 2007 apostolic letter that said Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Roman Missal, commonly known as the Tridentine rite, should be made available in every parish where groups of the faithful desire it. In his letter, the pope said the Mass from the Roman Missal in use since 1970 remains the ordinary form of the Mass, while celebration of the Tridentine Mass is the extraordinary form.

The response to the papal letter varied around the world. In the United States, many bishops -- even those not enthusiastic about the new policy -- took steps to explain it to their faithful and put it into practice.

But in Europe and Latin America, conference participants said, there's been less favorable reaction.

"In Italy, with just a few admirable exceptions, the bishops have put obstacles in the way of applying ('Summorum Pontificum')," Msgr. Camille Perl told the Rome conference.

"I would have to say the same thing about the major superiors of religious orders who forbid their priests from celebrating Mass in the old rite," Msgr. Perl said.

Msgr. Perl is vice president of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei," which oversees implementation of the papal document, so his words carried weight. Italian newspapers reported his comments under the headline "The bishops are boycotting the pope."

Two Brazilian priests attending the conference complained that they're facing a similar situation in their country.

"I think there's a great desire on the part of young priests to learn the older rite. But we don't study it in seminaries, and the bishops don't cooperate on that," said Father Giuseppe Olivera of Sao Paolo.

Msgr. Perl said letters received by his commission indicate considerable interest in setting up local Tridentine Masses in France, Great Britain, Canada, the United States and Australia. He said there have been fewer requests for the older Mass in Latin America, Africa and Asia.

Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who heads the "Ecclesia Dei" commission, said recently that Pope Benedict would eventually like to see the Tridentine rite offered in every parish. But for now, in the pope's own Diocese of Rome, a single church, Santissima Trinita dei Pellegrini, has been designated as a "personal parish" for traditionalists.

That's a solution that appeals to some dioceses, especially those that include large cities, but it tends to separate traditionalists from other local parishes. It also seems to put bishops in charge of the decision of where and when a Tridentine Mass is offered, instead of the local pastor, as indicated by "Summorum Pontificum."

Father Joseph Kramer, pastor at Rome's Santissima Trinita church, said that so far his parish is attracting a lot of younger people and those over 50, but not many in between and few young families.

In general, he said, it's important for traditionalist Catholics to make it clear that they accept the changes of the Second Vatican Council, in order not to frighten off "normal" Catholics who might be attracted to the older rite.

U.S. Father John Zuhlsdorf runs a blog -- "What Does the Prayer Really Say?" -- that's become a sounding board for reaction to "Summorum Pontificum" among traditionalist Catholics.

One recent comment on the blog began: "Frankly, I'm sick and tired. Tired of waiting. 'Summorum Pontificum' has been in force for one year now and, in spite of the fact that I live in a huge metropolitan area, there is no TLM (traditional Latin Mass) to which I can go" without driving at least an hour.

Father Zuhlsdorf, who attended the Rome conference, said he understands some of these frustrations but takes a generally positive view of the first year of "Summorum Pontificum."

One good thing, he said, is that the papal directive has deeply affected priests, especially younger priests, and their perception of "who they are at the altar." As time goes on and older priests and bishops retire, this interest will have a ripple effect on parish life, he said.

Another plus is that resources for the older rite, including beautifully bound missals, are being produced and published. These could appeal to Catholics and "help change the culture of participating at Mass," Father Zuhlsdorf said.

In addition, he said, some U.S. seminaries are beginning to introduce courses in celebrating the Tridentine rite. Private training programs for priests, workshops and Web sites also have been established.

He compared it to the Ford Motor Co. putting a new model into production.

"It takes a long time to construct the assembly plant, but once you get the thing built you can get the product out more quickly," he said.

In the more-to-be-done category, Father Zuhlsdorf said there are still some priests and bishops who have "a bit of a stingy attitude" about the legitimate requests of traditionalists.

He said Latin proficiency is an example of where a double standard seems to be used to create an obstacle to the wider offering of the older Mass. While it's true that a priest celebrating in Latin has to know what he's saying at the altar, he said, one could also ask about proficiency in English among priests coming from a foreign country to serve in the United States.

In any case, he said, the Code of Canon Law requires that all seminarians be well-trained in Latin. If that isn't being done today, seminary officials should be addressing the problem, he said.

END[/color][/quote]

Latin rules (Latina Regit!) and Benedict is not only winning major brownie points with me due to my years of service at my high school Latin club but because I think bringing back some of the older rites/use of Latin a great move as far as unifying traditionalist Catholics with the Church . I love the older rituals and use of Latin in the Mass. -Katie

[HolyPhoenix]

I don't see why Bishops and Priests would be putting up obstacles for people. Are they too lazy to learn the old rite themselves. There seems to be a pretty big push for the Tridentine Rite in Colorado as far as I have seen. I have heard of obstacles coming up as well, but for the most part I think it's found it's way here.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='philothea' post='1661482' date='Sep 22 2008, 07:40 PM']I think it's hard for people who never experienced the church before Vatican II to appreciate how necessary the reforms were -- even if a lot of places ran too far with them.

As far as I understand, before V2, the church appeared very segregated, in that the laypeople were completely unimportant and uninvolved. Entirely second-class citizens. Only the clergy appeared to matter, and often even they hadn't been educated very well, and didn't know what they were saying.[/quote]

Then you have a very skewed understanding of pre-Conciliar Catholicism. Since the Council of Trent, most seminaries had provided a very good education for priests and the clergy knew their stuff. In addition, since the early 1900s the liturgical movement had been going on and the laity were seeing high levels of participation in the liturgy: people were chanting the Ordinary, following along in handmissals, and (in the 1950s) the were even saying the responses! There was a huge deal of participation in the actual prayers of the liturgy (as opposed to private devotions) in those places effected by the liturgical movement (which ended up being nearly everywhere). Not that the liturgical movement turned out so well . It ended up being all about making the liturgy both exactly as it was in some apparently golden age of antiquity and bringing it up to date with the modern world: at the same time.

[mortify]

[quote name='philothea' post='1661482' date='Sep 22 2008, 08:40 PM']As far as I understand, before V2, the church appeared very segregated, in that the laypeople were completely unimportant and uninvolved. Entirely second-class citizens. Only the clergy appeared to matter, and often even they hadn't been educated very well, and didn't know what they were saying.[/quote]

This is a very common perception of the pre vat ii era, it's accuracy is another matter. Even if the common perception was not only true but also the rule, I find it hard to understand all the changes that have taken place.

[philothea]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1661566' date='Sep 22 2008, 10:42 PM']Then you have a very skewed understanding of pre-Conciliar Catholicism. Since the Council of Trent, most seminaries had provided a very good education for priests and the clergy knew their stuff. In addition, since the early 1900s the liturgical movement had been going on and the laity were seeing high levels of participation in the liturgy: people were chanting the Ordinary, following along in handmissals, and (in the 1950s) the were even saying the responses! There was a huge deal of participation in the actual prayers of the liturgy (as opposed to private devotions) in those places effected by the liturgical movement (which ended up being nearly everywhere). Not that the liturgical movement turned out so well . It ended up being all about making the liturgy both exactly as it was in some apparently golden age of antiquity and bringing it up to date with the modern world: at the same time.[/quote]
Please note my use of the word "appeared."

[Barbarus]

[quote name='mortify' post='1661594' date='Sep 22 2008, 11:04 PM']This is a very common perception of the pre vat ii era, it's accuracy is another matter. Even if the common perception was not only true but also the rule, I find it hard to understand all the changes that have taken place.[/quote]
Is it really all that hard to understand?

One of my former profs (a true Catholic priest) gave one of the best summaries of Vatican 2 I've heard. He said Vatican II was not really written for the church but for the world, and the documents are far more evangelistic in tone than previous councils. There have been 21 councils, and 20 of them sound something like Trent. They are called when there is a challenge to the gospel, some point of truth that needs to be discerned. So the language used is the same as St. Paul's -- that those who preach another gospel other than what the church teaches should be accursed, or "anathema." It is the Church looking back to the way the apostles handled the gospel.

However, Vatican II is not like this. Those who wrote those documents very carefully broke with tradition, with the goal of writing a very different kind of document. This was not a council called to deal with false teaching or to [i]protect[/i] the gospel but to [i]promulgate[/i] the gospel.
The point of the council was the new evangelization – to help the world to accept Christ. It was designed to be accessible to the modern mind and the modern ear. Trent was not superseded (this is perhaps the most common misunderstanding -- Trent and Vatican I are the most recent dogmatic councils, as, I'm sure you know). Rather, Vatican II was (and is) to be understood in continuity with previous councils.

I personally think the intent behind the council was good. The Church absolutely must continue to communicate the gospel effectively, and part of that means figuring out how to communicate it in such a way that it addresses the challenges of modern day secular society. After Trent, the Church withdrew quite a bit, and spent a lot of time bickering internally and failing to address new thoughts and ideas being promulgated in the larger culture. While I don't advocate having a "seeker sensitive" church (as so many Protestant mush-makers do), I do think the church needs to be sensitive to ways in which the gospel can respond to the larger cultural challenges to faith. Kant needed to be answered. We've done that. Other secular thinkers need to be answered, and by being more flexible in our evangelization we are better situated to do that.

The thing we need to remember is that all this must always be done in continuity with the past. I think people got the wrong idea, and tried to lump Vatican II in with other cultural changes. Everything was changing in the 60s ... why not Church doctrine?

I think, personally, that the answer is not to try to recapture the past, but to understand it more fully and to allow it to inform us moving forward. I think that is what Pope Benedict's document did -- it reminded us that we are still the Church, and we are still guided by and informed by the past. We must not let that go, even as we encounter new challenges in the present day.

[Church Punk]

I read an article in the Washington Post on the TLM... They pretty much summed up the situation when they said,

[quote]Like devout record store clerks, American Catholics are still having a sort of Stones-vs.-Beatles debate about what the classics really are.

Imagine a bizarro world where all the 25-year-olds want Mozart and all the 60-year-olds want adult-contemporary. The kids think the adults are too wild. The backlash against "Kumbaya Catholicism" has anyone under 40 allegedly clamoring for the Tridentine Mass in Latin, while the old folks are most sentimental about Casual Sunday (even more rockin', the Saturday vigil Mass), and still cling to what's evolved from the lite-rock guitar liturgies of the 1970s. The result, for most parishes, has been decades of Masses in which no one is entirely satisfied, and very few enjoy the music enough to sing along.[/quote]

Well put isnt it?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='philothea' post='1661612' date='Sep 22 2008, 11:27 PM']Please note my use of the word "appeared."[/quote]
Indeed. But I think he nicely explained the truth for noobs on the subject like me.

[quote name='Church Punk' post='1661743' date='Sep 23 2008, 08:51 AM']I read an article in the Washington Post on the TLM... They pretty much summed up the situation when they said,



Well put isnt it?[/quote]
Verbum.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1661566' date='Sep 22 2008, 08:42 PM']Then you have a very skewed understanding of pre-Conciliar Catholicism. Since the Council of Trent, most seminaries had provided a very good education for priests and the clergy knew their stuff. In addition, since the early 1900s the liturgical movement had been going on and the laity were seeing high levels of participation in the liturgy: people were chanting the Ordinary, following along in handmissals, and (in the 1950s) the were even saying the responses! There was a huge deal of participation in the actual prayers of the liturgy (as opposed to private devotions) in those places effected by the liturgical movement (which ended up being nearly everywhere). Not that the liturgical movement turned out so well . It ended up being all about making the liturgy both exactly as it was in some apparently golden age of antiquity and bringing it up to date with the modern world: at the same time.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i think that perhaps it may be a 'where you are at' thing. some places, laity were encouraged; other places, not so much. some places, priests were educated and involved; other places, they weren't.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1661566' date='Sep 22 2008, 08:42 PM']Then you have a very skewed understanding of pre-Conciliar Catholicism. Since the Council of Trent, most seminaries had provided a very good education for priests and the clergy knew their stuff. In addition, since the early 1900s the liturgical movement had been going on and the laity were seeing high levels of participation in the liturgy: people were chanting the Ordinary, following along in handmissals, and (in the 1950s) the were even saying the responses! There was a huge deal of participation in the actual prayers of the liturgy (as opposed to private devotions) in those places effected by the liturgical movement (which ended up being nearly everywhere). Not that the liturgical movement turned out so well . It ended up being all about making the liturgy both exactly as it was in some apparently golden age of antiquity and bringing it up to date with the modern world: at the same time.[/quote]

BTW, I may have come off as seeming like I was saying that those who meditate during the Mass, or who pray the Rosary, or who don't say the responses aren't participating in the Mass, which is certainly not the case. However, the most recommended way of assisting Mass is following along with the actual prayers of the Mass