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Illegal Immigration And The Mortgage Mess


Madame Vengier

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[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1662723' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:25 PM']And I did not sayt IMMIGRANTS. Please don't misquote me. I said illegal aliens. They are NOT immigrants.[/quote]

If anyone was not aware, using the phrase "illegal aliens" is, in a small way, contributing to the disrespect of human life. I hope that we can all agree that especially in discussing immigrants in the united states it is important to uphold all people's human dignity (as the Catholic bishops reiterate many times in the pastoral letter "Strangers no Longer: together on the journey of hope"). Simply by using the phrase "illegal aliens" we are using a double negative to generalize about people. It creates a negative connotation, whether some people are aware of it or not.

I'm asking everyone to be aware and if you use this phrase to please change your language.
Maybe just say people who are not legally living here, or illegal foreigners.

Also, they are in fact immigrants. According to the Oxford English Dictionary an immigrant is "one who or that which immigrates; a person who migrates into a country as a settler" and to immigrate means "To come to settle in a country (which is not one's own); to pass into a new habitat or place of residence".

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[quote name='LiL Kat Said' post='1662872' date='Sep 24 2008, 04:52 PM']If anyone was not aware, using the phrase "illegal aliens" is, in a small way, contributing to the disrespect of human life. I hope that we can all agree that especially in discussing immigrants in the united states it is important to uphold all people's human dignity (as the Catholic bishops reiterate many times in the pastoral letter "Strangers no Longer: together on the journey of hope"). Simply by using the phrase "illegal aliens" we are using a double negative to generalize about people. It creates a negative connotation, whether some people are aware of it or not.

I'm asking everyone to be aware and if you use this phrase to please change your language.
Maybe just say people who are not legally living here, or illegal foreigners.

Also, they are in fact immigrants. According to the Oxford English Dictionary an immigrant is "one who or that which immigrates; a person who migrates into a country as a settler" and to immigrate means "To come to settle in a country (which is not one's own); to pass into a new habitat or place of residence".[/quote]

Agreed. "Illegal aliens" makes me cringe....

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Didn't Pope Benedict just put out a pastoral letter about immigration? If I'm not mistaken, he called for countries where undocumented aliens are common to treat them with dignity and humanity.

Of course, John Paul II was against capital punishment, and the US didn't follow his admonitions about that, so I imagine we won't listen to Pope Benedict's either.

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[quote name='LiL Kat Said' post='1662872' date='Sep 24 2008, 04:52 PM']If anyone was not aware, using the phrase "illegal aliens" is, in a small way, contributing to the disrespect of human life. I hope that we can all agree that especially in discussing immigrants in the united states it is important to uphold all people's human dignity (as the Catholic bishops reiterate many times in the pastoral letter "Strangers no Longer: together on the journey of hope"). Simply by using the phrase "illegal aliens" we are using a double negative to generalize about people. It creates a negative connotation, whether some people are aware of it or not.

I'm asking everyone to be aware and if you use this phrase to please change your language.
Maybe just say people who are not legally living here, or illegal foreigners.

Also, they are in fact immigrants. According to the Oxford English Dictionary an immigrant is "one who or that which immigrates; a person who migrates into a country as a settler" and to immigrate means "To come to settle in a country (which is not one's own); to pass into a new habitat or place of residence".[/quote]

I'm sorry, but just who in the world appointed [u]you[/u] the PC/language police that everyone must obey?

Second, what is so wrong with the term illegal alien? Alien is a correct term for someone who is not native (I've even seen the phrase used in the OT), and they are here illegally. So what's the problem?

Edited by Norseman82
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[quote name='Norseman82' post='1662927' date='Sep 24 2008, 05:24 PM']I'm sorry, but just who in the world appointed [u]you[/u] the PC/language police that everyone must obey?

Second, what is so wrong with the term illegal alien? Alien is a correct term for someone who is not native (I've even seen the phrase used in the OT), and they are here illegally. So what's the problem?[/quote]

No one is telling you to do anything but realize the impact that your words have.


The term bastard means a child without a father. However, you wouldn't call fatherless children bastards because of the negative connotation associated with it.

I'm just sayin' :tomato:

Edited by picchick
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Madame Vengier

[quote name='Maggie' post='1662730' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:37 PM']Don't you think this is splitting hairs ;) After all when we refer to this subject we often use the term "illegal [b]immigration[/b]." But the point you are trying to make is that you are not blaming this on one sector of the population and that is loud and clear, I am just being nit-picky.

In this column Malkin does seem to be laying a lot of the blame at the feet of the undocumented. I am sure they are a factor in the whole mess but there is more than enough blame to go around for everybody. Is it just me or do writers like Michelle seem angry all the time? It exhausted me just reading this one column.[/quote]


Is there nothing that makes you angry?

Anyway, I understand that "illegal immigration" is a phrase often used, but consider this in technical terms: if they are not here legally and have not begun the proper process to immigrate legally (and many of them, after more than a decade here, don't intend to ever begin this legal process), then no way and no how are they immigrants.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1662734' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:41 PM']The financial problems can be traced back to greed and making stupid mistakes trying to keep up with the Jones'. I'm against giving money to the institutions/people who screwed this stuff up to begin with.[/quote]

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on both comments. I really do.

However, the illegal alien situation (look at the states of the some of the major areas in need of the "bailout"...high concentrations of illegal aliens there--MM made this point in her column as well) is PART of the current problem. I did ever say--nor even imply--that the illegal alien situation is the sole cause. Naturally, if I had said such a thing it would be stupid and a lie. But it is ONE PART of the problem and as such it warrants discussion.

If we (America in general) can discuss one aspect of the cause of the problem then why can't we address other causes of the problem? Why, when some of us point to the illegal alien problem as part of the cause of the mortgage mess, does someone come along and counter with comments like "it's not all their fault" and "American citizens have been irresponsible, too"?

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1662737' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:51 PM']Do we have a dollar amount or percentage figure as to how much of this debacle can be attributed to illegal aliens?[/quote]

Without a doubt, people in the homeloan business could come up with a figure, but who wants to admit to giving loans to people who are in our country illegally and therefore not entitled to said loans in the first place? Who wants to admit to that?

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='picchick' post='1662751' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:06 PM']I am just saying that this issue cannot be blamed entirely on illegal immigrants.[/quote]

And I am just saying to you--again--that I never said "they are entirely to blame". This thread is about the illegal alien sistuation and the effect it has had on the current mortgage crisis and the impending bailout which is coming out of the pockets of every tax-paying American citizen and every legal American resident.

I don't like having to defend myself against a statement that I never made nor implied. It annoys me and most importantly, distracts from the topic. If you or anyone else wants to start a thread about how irresponsible American citizens have contributed to the mortgage crisis, you are free to do so. I choose to address this aspect of the crisis.

If it makes anyone uncomfortable or they find it boring or they don't agree, they are free to not read it. Just like I don't read threads that don't interest me.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='SpareTime' post='1662780' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:31 PM']The reason some people say it is racist is because a lot of the time the people voicing their complaints talk a lot about Mexico and Mexicans but not about other illegal aliens.[/quote]

Because the vast and overwhelming majority are Mexican, as they share a border with us.

And this thread is about the mortgage mess. Not 5 years olds or medical care or what race illegal aliens are.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1662787' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:40 PM']I'm sorry, MV, I didn't realize my mistake in calling them immigrants and not illegal immigrants...

And, yeah, I'm sick of the Dems attacking the Bush Administration when they know darn well it was their policies that have gotten our country into this mess...

To talk about how to fix this mess, I say we NEVER give out loans to people who will NEVER pay them back! How is it fair that we hard-working taxpayers have to pay for those who don't work and yet, get a nice home that they could never afford in the first place??? This is the whole mindset of the Dem's and their welfare plans. It's the Dems pandering to the "poor" so that they can keep voting them into office. "Vote for us. We feed you. We house you. We OWN you!" And yet, they make the taxpayers pay for everything. And most of these Dems took home six-figure sums last year! *sigh* CROOKS![/quote]


Exactly. You got it.

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[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1663046' date='Sep 24 2008, 06:41 PM']Because the vast and overwhelming majority are Mexican, as they share a border with us.

And this thread is about the mortgage mess. Not 5 years olds or medical care or what race illegal aliens are.[/quote]

The original article mentioned being called a racist. I didn't bring that into the convo out of no where.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='LiL Kat Said' post='1662872' date='Sep 24 2008, 03:52 PM']If anyone was not aware, using the phrase "illegal aliens" is, in a small way, contributing to the disrespect of human life. I hope that we can all agree that especially in discussing immigrants in the united states it is important to uphold all people's human dignity (as the Catholic bishops reiterate many times in the pastoral letter "Strangers no Longer: together on the journey of hope"). Simply by using the phrase "illegal aliens" we are using a double negative to generalize about people. It creates a negative connotation, whether some people are aware of it or not.

I'm asking everyone to be aware and if you use this phrase to please change your language.
Maybe just say people who are not legally living here, or illegal foreigners.

Also, they are in fact immigrants. According to the Oxford English Dictionary an immigrant is "one who or that which immigrates; a person who migrates into a country as a settler" and to immigrate means "To come to settle in a country (which is not one's own); to pass into a new habitat or place of residence".[/quote]

1: Illegal aliens are NOT immigrants. The United States has proper channels for legal immigrants. Living here outside of those channels does not make a person an immigrant. It makes them an illegal (breaking the laws of our nation) alien (foreign person).

2: They are here without going through the proper, legal process of immigration or legal residency. The United States is a sovereign nation, just like 90% of all other nations in the world, and we have laws which are designed to create order and facilitate progress for all who want to come here LEGALLY. Every nation in the world has these same immigration laws. Every one. Why are Americans subjected to be called unkind, racist and bigoted for asking that visitors or residents to our nation follow the same laws that other countries impose?

3: Jesus taught us to render unto God that which is God's and to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Also, Pope Benedict XVI has called on all Catholic citizens everywhere in the world to respect the laws of the nations they live in.

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Madame Vengier

[quote name='picchick' post='1662885' date='Sep 24 2008, 04:03 PM']Agreed. "Illegal aliens" makes me cringe....[/quote]


Would "criminals" be more suitable? When a person breaks a law, they commit a crime. People who commit crimes are called criminals. But I bet that makes you cringe.

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