Lil Red Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 +J.M.J.+ [url="http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/preachers_to_challenge_tax_laws_sunday_20080926/"]One story here[/url] So what do you think of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 I know this probably won't be popular here, but I actually appreciate keeping specific who-to-vote-for politics out of church. Though it's kind of a weird IRS rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 [quote name='philothea' post='1666340' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:43 PM']I know this probably won't be popular here, but I actually appreciate keeping specific who-to-vote-for politics out of church. Though it's kind of a weird IRS rule.[/quote] It is unpopular with me, this is the Untied States this IRS 'rule' goes against the first amendment, both the freedom of speech and Freedom of Religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1666360' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:32 PM']It is unpopular with me, this is the Untied States this IRS 'rule' goes against the first amendment, both the freedom of speech and Freedom of Religion.[/quote] That's fine and good except the IRS has every right to take away tax-exempt status from the Church then. You think the shortage of priests is bad now? Wait until the Church also has to shoulder the burden of taxes as well. Then you'll be wishing they would comply and not speak out against the IRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1666613' date='Sep 29 2008, 09:41 PM']That's fine and good except the IRS has every right to take away tax-exempt status from the Church then. You think the shortage of priests is bad now? Wait until the Church also has to shoulder the burden of taxes as well. Then you'll be wishing they would comply and not speak out against the IRS.[/quote] What's weird about the rule, though, is that there are lots of tax-free, non-profit political groups, whose sole purpose is to promote political candidates or ideologies. 527 Groups, PACs, etc. Other non-profit groups have no such restriction. Why do only churches get that rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1666360' date='Sep 29 2008, 04:32 PM']It is unpopular with me, this is the Untied States this IRS 'rule' goes against the first amendment, both the freedom of speech and Freedom of Religion.[/quote] Well, remember that even with freedom of speech, there are things you cannot do and just get away with. crying "fire" in a movie theatre making public death threats against the president or against people in general Besides, if religious institutions could publicly advocate a candidate, you would be opening the door to a problem such as... 1. Candidate A wants to run for president. 2. Candidate A gets Catholic Church's endorsement 3. Candidate A wins and gets elected 4. Candidate A turns out to be a big crook. -How does that reflect on the church? Another possible problem. Candidate A gets CC endorsement. Candidate A is pro-life and shares Catholic teaching on pretty much everything except one or two things. Now if the CC endorses this person, does that mean the negative qualities of the person are okay? This could lead to some people mistakenly thinking some negative qualities are okay and can just be overlooked. Allowing churches to endorse candidates cannot be good. Stick with the issues. That is enough anyway. Edited September 30, 2008 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1666613' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:41 PM']That's fine and good except the IRS has every right to take away tax-exempt status from the Church then. You think the shortage of priests is bad now? Wait until the Church also has to shoulder the burden of taxes as well. Then you'll be wishing they would comply and not speak out against the IRS.[/quote] The IRS is the government, which does not have the right to restrict free speech based on tax-exempt status or anything else so long as said speech does not greatly physically endanger people. Churches in the US long had tax-exempt status before this anti speech IRS rule. Taking away the tax-exempt status because Churches use their God given rights is abusive government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1666623' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:57 PM']Well, remember that even with freedom of speech, there are things you cannot do and just get away with. crying "fire" in a movie theatre making public death threats against the president or against people in general Besides, if religious institutions could publicly advocate a candidate, you would be opening the door to a problem such as... 1. Candidate A wants to run for president. 2. Candidate A gets Catholic Church's endorsement 3. Candidate A wins and gets elected 4. Candidate A turns out to be a big crook. -How does that reflect on the church? Another possible problem. Candidate A gets CC endorsement. Candidate A is pro-life and shares Catholic teaching on pretty much everything except one or two things. Now if the CC endorses this person, does that mean the negative qualities of the person are okay? This could lead to some people mistakenly thinking some negative qualities are okay and can just be overlooked. Allowing churches to endorse candidates cannot be good. Stick with the issues. That is enough anyway.[/quote] What if? That is the risk in free speech, similar reasons could be given why no one should have the right to endorse or support any candidate. These what if's are no reason for the government to have the 'right' to abuse the Churches right of speech and religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='philothea' post='1666622' date='Sep 29 2008, 07:55 PM']What's weird about the rule, though, is that there are lots of tax-free, non-profit political groups, whose sole purpose is to promote political candidates or ideologies. 527 Groups, PACs, etc. Other non-profit groups have no such restriction. Why do only churches get that rule?[/quote] They rightfully fear the power of the Church which controls the salvation of millions. How do you suppose the Government would fare if the Church started speaking out directly against them? Hell is a great incentive to get people's attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1666632' date='Sep 29 2008, 09:04 PM']They rightfully fear the power of the Church which controls the salvation of millions. How do you suppose the Government would fare if the Church started speaking out directly against them? Hell is a great incentive to get people's attention.[/quote] The Government via the Constitution has no right to tell the Church what to do, the Church does have every right to tell the government what to do, but fallen as you are you will not agree nor understand. Again as I stated to eagle eye, these same what if's and excuses to restrict free speech could just as well be given to any person and/or group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1666634' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:08 PM']The Government via the Constitution has no right to tell the Church what to do, the Church does have every right to tell the government what to do, but fallen as you are you will not agree nor understand. Again as I stated to eagle eye, these same what if's and excuses to restrict free speech could just as well be given to any person and/or group.[/quote] I'm not disagreeing with you. However, you can't deny that the Government fears the Church and would naturally try to restrict it from causing chaos by means of officially endorsing or shunning a candidate or policy. And thanks for your vote of confidence in my intelligence. Just because I disagree with some of the things you say does not make me stupid or absolutely wrong. I don't believe that of you and I would likewise appreciate some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1666635' date='Sep 29 2008, 09:12 PM']I'm not disagreeing with you. However, you can't deny that the Government fears the Church and would naturally try to restrict it from causing chaos by means of officially endorsing or shunning a candidate or policy. And thanks for your vote of confidence in my intelligence. Just because I disagree with some of the things you say does not make me stupid or absolutely wrong. I don't believe that of you and I would likewise appreciate some respect.[/quote] Your welcome, but you have fallen away if you truly understood the Church you would not reject her. Anyway, yes [i]the government[/i] does fear free speech, but it still has no right what so ever to restrict free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1666637' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:16 PM']Your welcome, but you have fallen away if you truly understood the Church you would not reject her. Anyway, yes [i]the government[/i] does fear free speech, but it still has no right what so ever to restrict free speech.[/quote] Again, I didn't disagree with you. There is a difference between making a judgment and explaining why something is the way it is. I am not trying to justify the government, I am simply pointing out why they are doing what they are doing. And in regards to having fallen away, that's between me and God, if he exists, and not for you to hold against me. Unless of course you know better than He, in which case, I welcome you to single-handedly save my soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 the rule is completely unconstitutional... but then again, so is the IRS (well, until you get to the 16th ammendment, but I like to close my eyes and pretend that monstrosity doesn't exist; because the constitution isn't supposed to allow this on its principles)... anyway, it's against the principals of American government... but what are we to expect? of course the government is going to try to keep the people from actually getting fired up about changing the political system because they like the status quo. and it really isn't about being afraid that evangelical churches will sway elections to one political party or the other... they're afraid that the more powerful and large churches might realize they have this power and decide to put the endorsement of a divinely ordained Church behind someone outside of the two party system... imagine if the Catholic Church told people that under pain of sin they were not allowed to vote for either democrats or republicans... imagine the chaos in the political arena that would ensue... they don't really care if the Church sways things to make the Republican win, but on principal granting the Church that power could inspire a real shake up of the status quo if the Church decided she wanted her children to place Ron Paul in as president or that she wanted her children to place some hardcore Catholic in as president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1666647' date='Sep 29 2008, 08:27 PM']the rule is completely unconstitutional... but then again, so is the IRS (well, until you get to the 16th ammendment, but I like to close my eyes and pretend that monstrosity doesn't exist; because the constitution isn't supposed to allow this on its principles)... anyway, it's against the principals of American government... but what are we to expect? of course the government is going to try to keep the people from actually getting fired up about changing the political system because they like the status quo. and it really isn't about being afraid that evangelical churches will sway elections to one political party or the other... they're afraid that the more powerful and large churches might realize they have this power and decide to put the endorsement of a divinely ordained Church behind someone outside of the two party system... imagine if the Catholic Church told people that under pain of sin they were not allowed to vote for either democrats or republicans... imagine the chaos in the political arena that would ensue... they don't really care if the Church sways things to make the Republican win, but on principal granting the Church that power could inspire a real shake up of the status quo if the Church decided she wanted her children to place Ron Paul in as president or that she wanted her children to place some hardcore Catholic in as president.[/quote] This is what I was getting at. It's not right, by any means, for the Government to restrict free speech, but they do and should fear an organization like the Church that could easily, as Aloysius said, change the way things work by placing an obligation on it's members under pain of sin. Its no surprise that the gov't would act accordingly by disallowing the Church to have that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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