Jump to content
An Old School Catholic Message Board

Question For The Theologians Out There


Madame Vengier

Recommended Posts

Madame Vengier

Those of you who study or have studied theology and are familiar with a wide variety of theologians both liberal and orthodox: Would you consider Karl Rahner "orthodox"? I am about 99.9% sure I know the answer but I'm not a theologian and haven't read Rahner. I need to know this becuase I was in a conversation with a liberal Religious sister who kept talking about "challenging" the Church with "dialolgue" mainly on the issues of male priesthood. She stated that her primary argument against male priesthood was based on Catholic teaching about Baptism. She maintains that by Baptism all Catholics are equal in Christ and have been afforded the same rights through Baptism to receive all the sacraments and to participate equally on the mission of the Church. I was so exasperated at her total lack of knowledge of the subject--I stated to her that the teaching on male priesthood is not just about "because the Apostles were male" but it is a very deep theology and has to be studied. She claimed she has done that and it still makes no sense why some baptized Catholics would be denied rights to sacraments that others have (meaning women can't be priests but men can). I asked her if she had actually read solid Church teaching from a theological perspective and she said "Of course I have! I've read lots of Karl Rahner!" to which I responded that Rahner certainly does NOT fall into the category of "solid and orthodox Catholic theologians" to which she expressed total and complete shock and insisted that he most certainly IS solid and orthodox. Really, I'm not even for certain that she knows what this means. In any case, she's a really nice person but the fact that Karl Rahner is the only answer she gave for what "orthodox theologians" she's read is really kind of sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1667992' date='Oct 1 2008, 09:08 PM']Those of you who study or have studied theology and are familiar with a wide variety of theologians both liberal and orthodox: Would you consider Karl Rahner "orthodox"? I am about 99.9% sure I know the answer but I'm not a theologian and haven't read Rahner. I need to know this becuase I was in a conversation with a liberal Religious sister who kept talking about "challenging" the Church with "dialolgue" mainly on the issues of male priesthood. She stated that her primary argument against male priesthood was based on Catholic teaching about Baptism. She maintains that by Baptism all Catholics are equal in Christ and have been afforded the same rights through Baptism to receive all the sacraments and to participate equally on the mission of the Church. I was so exasperated at her total lack of knowledge of the subject--I stated to her that the teaching on male priesthood is not just about "because the Apostles were male" but it is a very deep theology and has to be studied. She claimed she has done that and it still makes no sense why some baptized Catholics would be denied rights to sacraments that others have (meaning women can't be priests but men can). I asked her if she had actually read solid Church teaching from a theological perspective and she said "Of course I have! I've read lots of Karl Rahner!" to which I responded that Rahner certainly does NOT fall into the category of "solid and orthodox Catholic theologians" to which she expressed total and complete shock and insisted that he most certainly IS solid and orthodox. Really, I'm not even for certain that she knows what this means. In any case, she's a really nice person but the fact that Karl Rahner is the only answer she gave for what "orthodox theologians" she's read is really kind of sad.[/quote]

He's good friends with Ratzinger and Ratzinger dedicated a book to him and wrote a book in his honor. Rahner is, so far as I have ever heard, solid orthodox. I read some of his, "Theological Investigations" back in 11th grade, so I can't say I remember anything, but I never remember reading anything that would constitute "unorthodox".

He has fascinating ideas on "the fall" and Origional Sin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Hassan' post='1667996' date='Oct 1 2008, 10:13 PM']He's good friends with Ratzinger and Ratzinger dedicated a book to him and wrote a book in his honor. Rahner is, so far as I have ever heard, solid orthodox. I read some of his, "Theological Investigations" back in 11th grade, so I can't say I remember anything, but I never remember reading anything that would constitute "unorthodox".

He has fascinating ideas on "the fall" and Origional Sin.[/quote]


The only "nonorthodox" idea of his I have ever heard of is his notion of "anonymous Christians". I have heard Ratzinger reference this isea, and ot the idea from the tone of his language that he rejects the notion, but he never attacked it as wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe Ratzinger himself said that Rahner was orthodox, and that was the exact word he used. However he is associated with a more liberal approach to theology than is popular nowadays. He was very "in" back in the 60s and 70s and you will find clergy and religious from that era are quite fond of him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Madame Vengier

[quote name='Maggie' post='1668019' date='Oct 1 2008, 10:27 PM']I believe Ratzinger himself said that Rahner was orthodox, and that was the exact word he used. However he is associated with a more liberal approach to theology than is popular nowadays. He was very "in" back in the 60s and 70s and you will find clergy and religious from that era are quite fond of him.[/quote]


The tricky part is that Ratzinger also was considered "liberal" back in that same era. It is a fact that he himself stated (in his memoirs I do believe) that he had a distinct turn-around at some juncture and moved away from that to a more completely orthodox adherence.

I'm still waiting for the Phatmass theologians to answer, though. I really just don't know myself so I want to be sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Ecclesiology professor last semester had done her doctoral dissertation on Rahner, and she was on the liberal side, so that makes me think he can be questioning of things that maybe makes the rest of us uncomfortable. I actually like his "anonymous Christians" theory. I have a lot of family members that I'd like to think could fall under that category.

I think one of the problems that we deal with when dealing with these freakishly smart theologians, is that sometimes they are so smart, such an expert in a particular area, that they simply ask questions about things that are settled, and don't need study or discussion. My mom would say that they have gotten too big for their britches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1668028' date='Oct 1 2008, 10:35 PM']The tricky part is that Ratzinger also was considered "liberal" back in that same era. It is a fact that he himself stated (in his memoirs I do believe) that he had a distinct turn-around at some juncture and moved away from that to a more completely orthodox adherence.

I'm still waiting for the Phatmass theologians to answer, though. I really just don't know myself so I want to be sure.[/quote]
I have read Ratzinger's autobiography. I do not remember any big swing from the left. I beleive he once supported more lay involvement in the Church. I think his liberalism was more related to Liturgical issues than anything that would have to do with women being ordained.

His praise of Rahner that I read was recent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1668038' date='Oct 1 2008, 09:37 PM'][b][size=4]My Ecclesiology professor last semester had done her doctoral dissertation on Rahner, and she was on the liberal side, so that makes me think he can be questioning of things that maybe makes the rest of us uncomfortable[/size].[/b] I actually like his "anonymous Christians" theory. I have a lot of family members that I'd like to think could fall under that category.

I think one of the problems that we deal with when dealing with these freakishly smart theologians, is that sometimes they are so smart, such an expert in a particular area, that they simply ask questions about things that are settled, and don't need study or discussion. My mom would say that they have gotten too big for their britches.[/quote]

I don't think that's fair.

I'm not a conservative Catholic, nor a practicing Catholic, nor do I consider myself a Catholic anymore. My point is that I am quite sure that I am much more unorthodox than your professor and I draw a great deal of inspiration from Ratzinger(not pre Vatican II more liberal Ratzinger, but today's Ratzinger).

Intelectually I'd probably be more inclined towards Hans Kung, yet I have always considered Ratzinger a deeper thinker, drawn on Ratzinger a lot, and believe him to be one of the most profound thinkers of the 20th century.

So simply because your professor does draw on Rahner does not mean Rahner is liberal as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1668038' date='Oct 1 2008, 09:37 PM'][b][size=4]My Ecclesiology professor last semester had done her doctoral dissertation on Rahner, and she was on the liberal side, so that makes me think he can be questioning of things that maybe makes the rest of us uncomfortable[/size].[/b] I actually like his "anonymous Christians" theory. I have a lot of family members that I'd like to think could fall under that category.

I think one of the problems that we deal with when dealing with these freakishly smart theologians, is that sometimes they are so smart, such an expert in a particular area, that they simply ask questions about things that are settled, and don't need study or discussion. My mom would say that they have gotten too big for their britches.[/quote]

I don't think that's fair.

I'm not a conservative Catholic, nor a practicing Catholic, nor do I consider myself a Catholic anymore. My point is that I am quite sure that I am much more unorthodox than your professor and I draw a great deal of inspiration from Ratzinger(not pre Vatican II more liberal Ratzinger, but today's Ratzinger).

Intelectually I'd probably be more inclined towards Hans Kung, yet I have always considered Ratzinger a deeper thinker, drawn on Ratzinger a lot, and believe him to be one of the most profound thinkers of the 20th century.

So simply because your professor does draw on Rahner does not mean Rahner is liberal as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brother Adam

I'm not a PM theologian and my research experience with Rahner is his revelation theology which I find extremely difficult to call orthodox, though it is certainly influential in Catholic theology. I've never heard of Ratzinger calling him a solid orthodox thinker so I'd be interested in a quote. I most often hear Rahner quoted by religious sisters and very liberal educators who do so to support theological dissent. I know he has influenced the experiential view of worship at our current parish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

goldenchild17

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1667992' date='Oct 1 2008, 09:08 PM']Those of you who study or have studied theology and are familiar with a wide variety of theologians both liberal and orthodox: Would you consider Karl Rahner "orthodox"? I am about 99.9% sure I know the answer but I'm not a theologian and haven't read Rahner. I need to know this becuase I was in a conversation with a liberal Religious sister who kept talking about "challenging" the Church with "dialolgue" mainly on the issues of male priesthood. She stated that her primary argument against male priesthood was based on Catholic teaching about Baptism. She maintains that by Baptism all Catholics are equal in Christ and have been afforded the same rights through Baptism to receive all the sacraments and to participate equally on the mission of the Church. I was so exasperated at her total lack of knowledge of the subject--I stated to her that the teaching on male priesthood is not just about "because the Apostles were male" but it is a very deep theology and has to be studied. She claimed she has done that and it still makes no sense why some baptized Catholics would be denied rights to sacraments that others have (meaning women can't be priests but men can). I asked her if she had actually read solid Church teaching from a theological perspective and she said "Of course I have! I've read lots of Karl Rahner!" to which I responded that Rahner certainly does NOT fall into the category of "solid and orthodox Catholic theologians" to which she expressed total and complete shock and insisted that he most certainly IS solid and orthodox. Really, I'm not even for certain that she knows what this means. In any case, she's a really nice person but the fact that Karl Rahner is the only answer she gave for what "orthodox theologians" she's read is really kind of sad.[/quote]

Considering my non-Catholic tag, take this for what its worth (not much) but I consider Rahner to be in the top 10 most influential yet heretical men in the church of the 20th century. If you want I can send you some articles about him and his positions, just email me.

Edited by goldenchild17
Link to comment
Share on other sites

LouisvilleFan

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1668192' date='Oct 2 2008, 01:03 AM']I'm not a PM theologian...[/quote]

You are part of the exclusive "Church Militant" group ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brother Adam

You need to be elevated to "Church Scholar" by dUSt though to be part of that "PM theologian" group. Maybe I will get it when I get my MA, but hopefully by the time my PhD is done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Madame Vengier

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1668192' date='Oct 1 2008, 11:03 PM']I most often hear Rahner quoted by religious sisters and very liberal educators who do so to support theological dissent. I know he has influenced the experiential view of worship at our current parish.[/quote]


Exactly. That's why I'm wondering about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...