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jckinsman

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[quote name='kamiller42' post='1675460' date='Oct 11 2008, 11:40 PM']Try reading more closely.

What does partisan have to do with derivatives? Only republicans deal in them? :blink:[/quote]

Your analysis was highly partisan, attempting to lay all the blame on democrates when republicans contributed to it significantly as well.

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[quote name='Hassan' post='1675463' date='Oct 12 2008, 12:42 AM']Your analysis was highly partisan, attempting to lay all the blame on democrates when republicans contributed to it significantly as well.[/quote]
So my "partisan analysis" had nothing to do with derivatives. I mentioned the financial institutions feeding at the trough. I am sure some of those brokers were republicans, but being in NYC means many were probably democrats.

In any case, the evidence, even by liberal sources, points heavily at the democrats. I have provided my evidence. May I read yours, or is "you're partisan" all you have? Feel free to refute my evidence.

Here some more evidence. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314"]Here is Andrew Cuomo selling the idea of subprime mortgages[/url]. They're good for us America! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs"]How about a 2004 congressional hearing where the democrats fought the regulator reporting the problem of subprime mortgages and calls from republicans from reform[/url]? You can find out [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4"]this and more[/url] by simply [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-3C0v8eVfw"]Googling it[/url].

Edited by kamiller42
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dairygirl4u2c

it doesn't have to be untrue to be partisan. it's what wasn't said that was the problem.

sure fannie and freddie has a "major share" of the blame. but, they only account for 15% of the irresponsible loans that were made.

the other 85% is from the private market pretty much.

as for what "even the liberal" press says, it seems pretty settled that what caused it is bill clinton deregulating it all. not, that fannie and freddie were involved.

and as for republican blame on it all.... they were in charge of congress during clinton's time. and even if it wasn't clinton that did it, don't you think there'd be a lot of republicans who said to deregulate?
and don't you think the republiucans during the last 8 years after clinton thought the same thing? even mccain who says he tried ot stop the mess, only tried to stop fannie and freddie, not the rest of it. he himself was on the deregulate band wagon.

so, if fannie etc are such a minor role, people who talk about it being the major role, simply don't know the details, or they're using it as a scape goat.

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dairygirl4u2c

also, you see folks like justin etc, which is pretty much typical here, sayig the bail out is "socialism" etc etc. as usual, they think using that word passes as an argument.

there's been estimates that the bad debt, or at least the debt, that's involved in all this is 50 trillion. our nation is valued at 120 trillion. some of these companies going out represented 25% percent of our credit economy. (granted, we're 30% higher than we should be in home values... so it might be appropriate for it to go).

that means the problem could very well be larger than we expect.

if, as bernake etc say, our problem is like a boat with holes in it, where we're saying that we're not going to help cause we didn't cause the holes..... how is that fair to us who were innocent?
our leaders were irresponisble, in government and in business enerally. if they'd have done what they should have, we wouldn't be in this mess.

there's no christian (as justin says) or logical or ideologicoal value that says we have to suffer at the hands of others, in the name of free markets.
true, the good idealogy does say that they should go down, but only to the extent that it doens't affect us too much.

now. we can have some effect from them, that's just the way it is, and not worry about it.
but we should at least allow for a major crisis as an exception to the no bail out mantra.

i would have voted against the bail out, simply cause to my uneducated knowledge (comapred to congress etc, not those here) i don't see enough reason to thnk we need to. but, if it's worse thatn i ralize, which the numbers seem to indicate it could be, we need to be willing ot make an exception if necessary.

to say "no bail out" "it's the free market, that's the way things are suppose to be by God's writ" as justin etc act, as if that's the end of discussion, is naive, simple minded, and wrong.
or, if someone disagrees with me on this point, that there's no exceptions, it's at least wrong to not be able to articulate why they disagree with it, philosophically etc, yet still to insist i am wrong.

Edited by dairygirl4u2c
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[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1675591' date='Oct 12 2008, 11:56 AM']it doesn't have to be untrue to be partisan. it's what wasn't said that was the problem.

sure fannie and freddie has a "major share" of the blame. but, they only account for 15% of the irresponsible loans that were made.

the other 85% is from the private market pretty much.

as for what "even the liberal" press says, it seems pretty settled that what caused it is bill clinton deregulating it all. not, that fannie and freddie were involved.

and as for republican blame on it all.... they were in charge of congress during clinton's time. and even if it wasn't clinton that did it, don't you think there'd be a lot of republicans who said to deregulate?
and don't you think the republiucans during the last 8 years after clinton thought the same thing? even mccain who says he tried ot stop the mess, only tried to stop fannie and freddie, not the rest of it. he himself was on the deregulate band wagon.

so, if fannie etc are such a minor role, people who talk about it being the major role, simply don't know the details, or they're using it as a scape goat.[/quote]


:topsy:

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[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1675591' date='Oct 12 2008, 12:56 PM']sure fannie and freddie has a "major share" of the blame. but, they only account for 15% of the irresponsible loans that were made.

the other 85% is from the private market pretty much.[/quote]
Where do you get your facts? Please cite your sources for those numbers.

The fact is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned and secured nearly half of America's 12 trillion dollar market. [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/business/11ripple.html?ex=1373515200&en=8ad220403fcfdf6e&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink"]Source[/url] The government pushed banks to make loans on the promise Fannie and Freddie would secure them. They secured the loans by selling lies to investors in the form of derivatives. The idea was to spread the risk across multiple investors. The problem is Fannie and Freddie assumed so much risk that they became vulnerable to market conditions.

This crisis was the fall of a set of dominoes which began with Fannie and Freddie. The two contained so much mass that when these stars imploded, it created a huge black hole that began sucking everyone in.

[quote]as for what "even the liberal" press says, it seems pretty settled that what caused it is bill clinton deregulating it all. not, that fannie and freddie were involved.

and as for republican blame on it all.... they were in charge of congress during clinton's time. and even if it wasn't clinton that did it, don't you think there'd be a lot of republicans who said to deregulate?[/quote]
Right guy, but wrong reason. It was not deregulation that caused this. It was the enforcement of poor regulation. This crisis is not a free market or deregulation caused event. It was the government manipulating businesses and markets to achieve social engineering.

[quote]and don't you think the republiucans during the last 8 years after clinton thought the same thing? even mccain who says he tried ot stop the mess, only tried to stop fannie and freddie, not the rest of it. he himself was on the deregulate band wagon.

so, if fannie etc are such a minor role, people who talk about it being the major role, simply don't know the details, or they're using it as a scape goat.[/quote]
McCain doesn't say he tried to stop it. It's in the record that he did try to stop it.

You grossly underestimate the role of Fannie and Freddie.

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[quote name='Justin86' post='1674948' date='Oct 11 2008, 10:35 AM']Btw, it's actually [b]Freddie[/b] Mac, and Fannie Mae. Confusing, I know.[/quote]
I know I just like to lump them together, It's my new word for "we've been taken"

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Wow!, Gone for a couple days,and it takes me 1/2 hr to take it all in. Just for the record, I do know that my husband does not foot the"whole" bill. :thumbsup: As I read through the thread I realized that there is a whole lot of frustrating points on all of us, as Americans. I just wanted to make a few points myself though. First off, I was not offended by the liberal position on this. I just do not agree with it. I don't agree that we should create a future dependent on government to provide for us everything,even if we blow it..... or they blow it. Hence "they" need now to sell some of their vacation homes and take a wee bit less $ in bonuses. Cookin' the books will have it's drawbacks, huh? ...and the other "they" need to learn how to not live outside of there means. Now because all of that happened,we all get to enjoy the benefits of learning a huge lesson in life. There will be no "get out of Debt" free card,in my book. The real question is "are we going to really learn it?

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