Motu Proprio Obstruction

[philothea]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1676082' date='Oct 13 2008, 03:53 AM']With the TLM it's different. After a few times you've got a pretty good idea what's going on, even if you don't know the exact wording the priest uses (and my dad gave me his children's missal, not his adult missal, so I don't even [i]have[/i] all the words... nice pictures, though ). And what you do then is, indeed, pray. And observe. Some people use the Rosary, I usually don't - it depends on what you like, I guess (diversity yay!).

At the beginning of Mass, I pray for the priest and the servers. The Kyrie and Gloria are usually response-based, so then I sing along (careful not to do the choir parts out of habit). We're lucky to have the readings in Dutch after they're done in Latin, so that's easy to follow along. At the Offertory, I try to offer whatever I've brought along spiritually or mentally. The Consecration and Communion are emotional rollercoaster - and personal time. That's how I participate at the TLM. And believe me, God is getting a lot more attention from me (and chattering, and whining) than He used to get during a NO.[/quote]

Thank you very much for sharing! I understand better now. I guess I'd built up an assumption of the differences -- that a TLM was, well, prettier and more formal and in Latin of course, but not that the whole manner of participating was different.

Good thing I did this research and talked to you guys before going to a Latin Mass.... I'd have been trying (and failing) to translate the Latin in real time and figure out what I'm supposed to do. Would've been very stressful.

[quote name='melporcristo' post='1676121' date='Oct 13 2008, 09:30 AM']JMJ
I have a question tho - and something I wish to see change - why are the readings different and the Liturgical Calendar different with the Latin Mass? I wish it was the same as what the Universal Church is reading on Sundays and we were all celebrating the same feast days.[/quote]
When the NO was introduced, the calendar was updated. From what I understand there are parts of the prayers of the Tridentine mass which vary depending on what day it is. There would have to be a new Latin missal written to use the new calendar.

That would certainly help promote the TLM. I wonder if it would be a lot of work?

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='philothea' post='1676260' date='Oct 13 2008, 10:34 PM']Thank you very much for sharing! I understand better now. I guess I'd built up an assumption of the differences -- that a TLM was, well, prettier and more formal and in Latin of course, but not that the whole manner of participating was different.

Good thing I did this research and talked to you guys before going to a Latin Mass.... I'd have been trying (and failing) to translate the Latin in real time and figure out what I'm supposed to do. Would've been very stressful. [/quote]

Yes. Don't I did it the first time, and it meant I missed the Consecration. That wasn't fun.
The thing I would advice is to catch someone nice who can go through the outline with you, so you know when Mass actually starts (there might be a Vidi Aquam before it), when the offertory is (it's much longer than in the NO), and give you a poke when the consecration is about to happen (they ring a bell, but that happens more ). For the remainder, just let it flow. Watch. Pray. Read the Readings along if they don't do them in English after the Latin one.

Oh, and don't sing along with the Our Father

[quote]When the NO was introduced, the calendar was updated. From what I understand there are parts of the prayers of the Tridentine mass which vary depending on what day it is. There would have to be a new Latin missal written to use the new calendar.

That would certainly help promote the TLM. I wonder if it would be a lot of work?[/quote]

It would, because the readings schedule is totally different in the TLM. There are only two, and I haven't read into it, but I bet there's a whole lotta reasons why it should be That Way and Not Different. Changing that might change something too essential. And then we're not even considering our very much non-separated brethren who think changing [i]anything[/i] is changing something too essential.

[Guest albertjazz]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1675500' date='Oct 12 2008, 04:36 AM']I think (and I believe Fr. Z.'s blogged similarly) that many who are attached to the EF and who desire to see it more widely available simply need to practice more patience. The Moto Proprio on its own, whilst magnificent and very generous, cannot undo the accumulated mindset of the past few decades in one fell swoop. It needs patience, gentleness and prayer - as much if not more from our part (gosh, am I counting myself as one of them? I suppose I am) as from the Pope's.[/quote]

Thie gentleness and smoothness didnt apply to the iconoclasts who wasted no time in tearing down any hint of tradition,immediately following the second Vatican Council
The alter rail was removed and the high alter replaced by the turned around kitchen table,the font where I was baptised replaced with a washing up bowl,in next to no time

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='albertjazz' post='1677160' date='Oct 14 2008, 04:16 PM']Thie gentleness and smoothness didnt apply to the iconoclasts who wasted no time in tearing down any hint of tradition,immediately following the second Vatican Council
The alter rail was removed and the high alter replaced by the turned around kitchen table,the font where I was baptised replaced with a washing up bowl,in next to no time[/quote]

First of all, this iconoclasm didn't happen everywhere - at least not in a physical sense. Second, as I've elaborated above, that others didn't abide by the standards of behaviour we need to exemplify does not excuse us from the same.

[Guest albertjazz]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1677167' date='Oct 14 2008, 09:52 AM']First of all, this iconoclasm didn't happen everywhere - at least not in a physical sense. Second, as I've elaborated above, that others didn't abide by the standards of behaviour we need to exemplify does not excuse us from the same.[/quote]
I would like to know where they didnt take place,and if not immediately,certainly in due time,for instance in what direction does your alter face?is there a communion rail?.I have no wih to impose my choice of Holy Mass on anybody,but it cannot be denied that the proponents of the Second Vatican Council in great haste imposed their will upon the majority,as it was at this time who were content and happy with the Tridentine Mass,and you seem to believe all is rosy in the garden

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='albertjazz' post='1677183' date='Oct 14 2008, 06:08 PM']I would like to know where they didnt take place,and if not immediately,certainly in due time,for instance in what direction does your alter face?is there a communion rail?.I have no wih to impose my choice of Holy Mass on anybody,but it cannot be denied that the proponents of the Second Vatican Council in great haste imposed their will upon the majority,as it was at this time who were content and happy with the Tridentine Mass,and you seem to believe all is rosy in the garden[/quote]

PP's cathedral has a nice kitchen table, about which she whines to the appropriate people (who don't listen); a beautiful high altar with Tabernacle smack bang in the middle, and a communion rail that's used every Sunday.

And I agree with her point: that the people whose actions we don't really like did certain things in a certain way does not mean WE have to do it, too.

I, for one, wouldn't want to be associated with people who behave like the VCII rushers did.

[RandomProddy]

There are advantages to having Christianity in the native tongue.

Firstly, it makes evangelizing a little bit easier. On campus I can get my bible out and not have to spend a few minutes translating the first verse (though that's more about having the bible in the native tongue rather than the liturgy but they are quite linked). The other point is that the church, being the community of the new covenant, is a social institution in nature. Taking a newcomer to a church service in which (s)he is unlikely to recognize more than a handful of words is not helpful in many respects.

Latin is nice, especially sung, but you [i]have[/i] to have it with a printed translation so that there is widespread understanding, else you just end up preaching to a converted clique of people. I could talk about the one lost sheep rather than the 99 righteous but you get my drift by now I think....

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='albertjazz' post='1677183' date='Oct 14 2008, 06:08 PM']I would like to know where they didnt take place,and if not immediately,certainly in due time,for instance in what direction does your alter face?is there a communion rail?.I have no wih to impose my choice of Holy Mass on anybody,but it cannot be denied that the proponents of the Second Vatican Council in great haste imposed their will upon the majority,as it was at this time who were content and happy with the Tridentine Mass,and you seem to believe all is rosy in the garden[/quote]


[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1677188' date='Oct 14 2008, 06:29 PM']PP's cathedral has a nice kitchen table, about which she whines to the appropriate people (who don't listen); a beautiful high altar with Tabernacle smack bang in the middle, and a communion rail that's used every Sunday.

And I agree with her point: that the people whose actions we don't really like did certain things in a certain way does not mean WE have to do it, too.

I, for one, wouldn't want to be associated with people who behave like the VCII rushers did.[/quote]

My ("my" lol ) cathedral was consecrated in 1887, the year in which construction was completed. This is a church in a very secular part of the Netherlands, where for several years there was no priest (in the [i]cathedral church![/i]) but a bunch of ladies who wanted to be priests ran yoga classes (or something). As VA said, there is a "Novus Ordo altar" (bad term, I know), but the cathedra is original and the sedilla isn't that young either. The main altar is still there, complete with tabernacle and communion rails.

There are three other chapels in the same building. The older altars are all still there. At the "guild altar" there's an old communion rail still too.

In addition, the parish church where I was baptised was consecrated in 1884, and this too has its original altars and communion rail, although there too is a moveable, "modern" altar in front of the old high altar. The original baptismal font chapel, complete with gates with the inscription "Ianua Coeli", stands at the back, next to the door, symbolising the beginning of each person's life in Christ.

The other main Catholic church in the same city, whilst in a very different architectural style and sadly lacking communion rails, has its old high altar still and if frequently used for the offering of the Extraordinary Form.

The church of [url="http://www.stone-dominicans.org.uk/The_Dominican_Sisters_-_Stone.html"]the Dominican Sisters in Stone, Staffordshire[/url] retains its old high altars too. A few years ago the entire interior was restored and it looks fantastic.

Have you ever seen the Sanctuary of [url="http://www.westminstercathedral.org.uk/index_flash.html"]Westminster Cathedral[/url]?

Or [url="http://www.bromptonoratory.com/"]Bromton Oratory[/url]?

Or [url="http://www.farmstreet.org.uk/home.htm"]Farm Street[/url], run by Jesuits?

Or the [url="http://www.sacredheartchurch-bournemouth.co.uk/"]church of the Sacred Heart in Bournemouth[/url]?

I am in no way saying that the "Tweede Beeldstorm" did [i]not[/i] happen in some places. In other places it took place to a lesser extent. But in many places people just did NOT go as overboard as people like to generalise, which I think is unfortunate. Often the "powers that be" would possibly be open to using all these glorious features again if encouraged gently and supported in their role as opposed to being confronted with angry accusations of something which in their environment never happened.

Edited October 14, 2008 by puellapaschalis

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1677196' date='Oct 14 2008, 06:57 PM']There are advantages to having Christianity in the native tongue.

Firstly, it makes evangelizing a little bit easier. On campus I can get my bible out and not have to spend a few minutes translating the first verse (though that's more about having the bible in the native tongue rather than the liturgy but they are quite linked). The other point is that the church, being the community of the new covenant, is a social institution in nature. Taking a newcomer to a church service in which (s)he is unlikely to recognize more than a handful of words is not helpful in many respects.

Latin is nice, especially sung, but you [i]have[/i] to have it with a printed translation so that there is widespread understanding, else you just end up preaching to a converted clique of people. I could talk about the one lost sheep rather than the 99 righteous but you get my drift by now I think....[/quote]

In asking for and encouraging priests in their offering of Mass in Latin, I don't believe that anyone says that everything Christianity-related must thus also be in Latin. That's a big non sequitur (if I spelt that right). The Mass is not, in the first instance, an evangelisation tool. It's an act of worship to Almighty God. A friend of mine [url="http://davidoostveen.blogspot.com/2008/05/mass-and-world.html"]wrote something about this[/url] on his blog.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1677224' date='Oct 14 2008, 07:41 PM']The Mass is not, in the first instance, an evangelisation tool. It's an act of worship to Almighty God.[/quote]

Word.

Although I do agree that Mass in Latin would make evangelisation more difficult. Totally agreed. But with vernacular masses available, I don't think it's reason enough not to do it in Latin (and yes, vernacular Masses [i]should stay[/i] available).

[Guest albertjazz]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1677167' date='Oct 14 2008, 09:52 AM']First of all, this iconoclasm didn't happen everywhere - at least not in a physical sense. Second, as I've elaborated above, that others didn't abide by the standards of behaviour we need to exemplify does not excuse us from the same.[/quote]
Moto propio Obsruction,is what the thread is called and it seems that is your true purpose,you dont like it do you? Iam a Roman Catholic aged 75 and I dont require to be patronised by statements of traditional outposts in the U K which you can count on one hand almost. You have your Mass but please leave us alone to have ours after decades of abuse by the "enlightened ones"

[puellapaschalis]

Well, I think your response has excellently illustrated how I'm not clear in my wording, so I'll let others take over who can explain better.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='albertjazz' post='1677236' date='Oct 14 2008, 08:07 PM']Moto propio Obsruction,is what the thread is called and it seems that is your true purpose,you dont like it do you? Iam a Roman Catholic aged 75 and I dont require to be patronised by statements of traditional outposts in the U K which you can count on one hand almost. You have your Mass but please leave us alone to have ours after decades of abuse by the "enlightened ones"[/quote]

Oh my word! THIS is why PuellaPaschalis keeps dragging me to the Traditional Mass! She secretly hates and thinks that... er...

I understand that you don't know PP, and since she tends to be a bit non-jumping-into-random-people's-faces-on-the-internet, that's understandable. So I'll tell you a bit about her.

1. She attends the TLM whenever she's less than 2 hours of travel away from it. This isn't very often, unfortunately, because she lives in a part of our country that's a bit far from every other part. So she makes do with harassing her priest into not committing too many liturgical abuses.
2. Her motto is "My liturgy committee is the Graduale Triplex". She's currently mad at me because I dared to say I want something that isn't written on four bars in square notes as the introit for my profession mass, should that ever happen

I could go on, but we should probably get back on topic.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1677224' date='Oct 14 2008, 06:41 PM']In asking for and encouraging priests in their offering of Mass in Latin, I don't believe that anyone says that everything Christianity-related must thus also be in Latin. That's a big non sequitur (if I spelt that right). The Mass is not, in the first instance, an evangelisation tool. It's an act of worship to Almighty God.[/quote]

You did spell it right

In the context of the Mass(/eucharist/communion) being the corporate worship of the church it's important to show to the outside world that the church is a body of believers and that they could, one day, be a part of it, so it has to be accessible.

The purpose of the church is to spread the gospel, that being:[list]
[*] "Jesus Christ is Lord"
[/list]

In the context of sovereignty,[list]
[*]he is lord of all
[*]and that all things are for the glory of God
[/list]

It should be in that encapsulation, rather than "the church should glorify God (not that this is wrong)", perhaps "The church should spread the good news and that all creation should glorify God".

I'm not saying that church services shouldn't be beautiful and holy.

Edited October 14, 2008 by RandomProddy

[Lil Red]

[quote name='geetarplayer' post='1676027' date='Oct 12 2008, 10:25 PM']It isn't just liberal bishops who are restricting the EF. I know of a very outspoken conservative bishop who has made it very hard for priests in the diocese to learn the TLM, and makes it known that he doesn't like that form of the rite, although it was the form under which he was ordained.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
wow, very interesting!