What Obama Really Thinks Of Abortion Survivors

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1675944' date='Oct 12 2008, 08:28 PM']I made a statement of logical fact about identity theory.[/quote]
If you made an argument, which is itself debatable, you didn't prove your point.

What do you know about the historical developments surrounding the concept of "personhood"?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1675966' date='Oct 12 2008, 10:44 PM']If you made an argument, which is itself debatable, you didn't prove your point.[/quote]

[i]Even if the fetus had a soul abortion would simply not be a replication (in the sense of an identical model) of the homocaust and any basis logic text will attest to this. [/i]

Identity:
x=y=df(F)(Fx<--->Fy)




[quote]What do you know about the historical developments surrounding the concept of "personhood"?[/quote]

not much at all to be honest

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1675746' date='Oct 12 2008, 05:01 PM']Clearly, an adult – as opposed to a child – has actualized many latent abilities that were present in his being from the first moment of his existence, but that does not mean that the child is not a person because he has not actualized his potential ability to do math, or read a book, or do any one of the many other things that come about through human effort. In fact it is not possible for a man to willfully develop ([i]actualize[/i]) an ability that was not inherently present within his nature as a "possibility", i.e., as an unrealized power, for that would involve bring something into being from nothing, and that idea is clearly contrary to right reason. Now, of course, in addition to abilities that are developed through acts of a man's will, there are also abilities ([i]powers[/i]) innately present within a man's nature that become active over time without any willed effort on his part (e.g., fertility), and these types of abilities are simply connected to the natural life cycle of the human being (i.e., to the process of maturation). Thus, in summary, some personal abilities require a man's willed effort in order to be actualized, while others become actualized as a normal part of the development of his being over time.[/quote]

ok


[quote]I do not know why you brought up the soul, but that word simply refers to the "vital principle" of a being, i.e., that the being in question is alive ([i]animate[/i]).[/quote]

I brought up the soul because most religious Christians who argue this claim that the feus must be protected because it has a soul which in given to it upon conception.

is this correct?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676025' date='Oct 12 2008, 10:21 PM']I brought up the soul because most religious Christians who argue this claim that the feus must be protected because it has a soul which in given to it upon conception.

is this correct?[/quote]
Everything that is alive has a soul, and in fact the English word "soul" is used to translate the Greek word "psyche," and the Latin word "anima," and the Hebrew word "nefesh", and all three of those words originally meant simply "living" being.

That said, an unborn baby is a person because it is a distinct subsisting being in a rational nature.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1676074' date='Oct 13 2008, 02:31 AM']Everything that is alive has a soul, and in fact the English word "soul" is used to translate the Greek word "psyche," and the Latin word "anima," and the Hebrew word "nefesh", and all three of those words originally meant simply "living" being.[/quote]

Except the soul is supposed to be immortal yes?


[quote]That said, an unborn baby is a person because it is a distinct subsisting being in a rational nature.[/quote]


I don't know what you men by this. "distinct subsisting being in a rational nature"?

[Fixxxer]

Its a sad thing but most people dont seem to care. On another forum i go to people said a little thing such as abortion shouldnt matter in a election.

*new avatar for obama

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676169' date='Oct 13 2008, 10:31 AM']Except the soul is supposed to be immortal yes?[/quote]
Yes, at least in the case of the rational soul, because it exceeds the matter that it actuates.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676169' date='Oct 13 2008, 10:31 AM']I don't know what you men by this. "distinct subsisting being in a rational nature"?[/quote]
As I tell my students, "Get a good dictionary and look up the words, because that is how you will come to understand the meaning of a given proposition."

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1676544' date='Oct 13 2008, 07:17 PM']Yes, at least in the case of the rational soul, because it exceeds the matter that it actuates.[/quote]

Then the religious claim for the existance of a soul is more than the simply fact that the animal is alive, correct?


[quote]As I tell my students, "Get a good dictionary and look up the words, because that is how you will come to understand the meaning of a given proposition."[/quote]

I know what each word means, I do not know what you mean by the phrase however.

[SpareTime]

hassan check open mic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676555' date='Oct 13 2008, 06:25 PM']Then the religious claim for the existance of a soul is more than the simply fact that the animal is alive, correct?[/quote]
Actually the claim I just made is not religiously based. Aristotle was not a Christian, nor was he religious in the modern sense of the word.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676555' date='Oct 13 2008, 06:25 PM']I know what each word means, I do not know what you mean by the phrase however.[/quote]
It goes back to what I said in an earlier post. The baby has a distinct act of existence from its mother's, and as a consequence it is a distinct person. The mother -- by necessity -- exists prior to the being of the child in her womb. To assert the opposite is irrational.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1676563' date='Oct 13 2008, 07:30 PM']Actually the claim I just made is not religiously based. Aristotle was not a Christian, nor was he religious in the modern sense of the word.[/quote]

true, however that really was not the point of my question. You seem to want to conflate the admission that the fetus is slive with the claim that it has an imortal soul. I may be totally wrong.


[quote]back to what I said in an earlier post. The baby has a distinct act of existence from its mother's, and as a consequence it is a distinct person. The mother -- by necessity -- exists prior to the being of the child in her womb. To assert the opposite is irrational.[/quote]

That is correct however the fetus is fundamentally different from a developed person in it's lack of cognitive ability. Generally the way abortion can be defended is on secular utilitarian ethics which makes the fetus's inability to understand its own eistance, anicipate fututre events, and truely process qualitative experience very important in the debate.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676581' date='Oct 13 2008, 06:40 PM']That is correct however the fetus is fundamentally different from a developed person in it's lack of cognitive ability. Generally the way abortion can be defended is on secular utilitarian ethics which makes the fetus's inability to understand its own eistance, anicipate fututre events, and truely process qualitative experience very important in the debate.[/quote]
That is where you are wrong. The child in the womb has all the abilities it will possess as an adult, it cannot but have them, and the only difference between a child and an adult is that the adult has actualized more of those abilities. It is irrational to assert that a substantial change occurs within a single existing organism whereby it becomes absolutely what it was not previously.

I am the same person I was 10, 20, 30, and even 40 years ago. In fact, I am the same subsisting (i.e., existing) being that I was in the womb of my mother, and the only difference is that I am now older and that I have actualized – both through willed efforts and the natural process of maturation – many of the latent abilities that I possessed only in potency as a baby.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1676581' date='Oct 13 2008, 06:40 PM']true, however that really was not the point of my question. You seem to want to conflate the admission that the fetus is slive with the claim that it has an imortal soul. I may be totally wrong.[/quote]
I have not argued for the immortal soul in any of my posts. In fact, I did not mention the soul at all. I have only spoken about "life" (in a very general sense) and personhood.

You are the one doing the conflating, not me.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1675574' date='Oct 12 2008, 12:23 PM']Hey you know that cool thing you do, like when you use the horror of the holocaust to stir up emotions for abortion?

Well Sam (I hope you don't mind if I call you Sam) some Jews actually get kind of offended when folks such as yourself use the near extinction of their people for a political ploy [/quote]
You're assuming intent.

It's a good analogy.

And what of gypsies?