Apotheoun Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1698417' date='Nov 9 2008, 03:16 PM']I believe most of the Bishops simply aren't radical enough...and I mean radically Christ-centered.[/quote] Be careful what you say, or you may be reprimanded as I was for criticizing an errant bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698422' date='Nov 9 2008, 06:18 PM']Be careful what you say, or you may be reprimanded as I was for criticizing an errant bishop.[/quote] But I didn't call any Bishop out by name, and also I was speaking of a general attitude, not a particular action by a particular Bishop. In any case, I have deep respect and filial love for our Bishops. I just feel sad for the state of the Church which the Bishops are also suffering from, clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1698429' date='Nov 9 2008, 03:21 PM']But I didn't call any Bishop out by name, and also I was speaking of a general attitude, not a particular action by a particular Bishop. [/quote] Yes, you criticized them all. May God bless you for that. St. Maximos the Confessor (a layman) criticized many bishops, including the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople of his day, and he is one of the greatest of the saints, and a defender of Orthodoxy in the face of the Monothelite heresy. Edited November 9, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698432' date='Nov 9 2008, 06:23 PM']Yes, you criticized them all. May God bless you for that. St. Maximos the Confessor (a layman) criticized many bishops, including the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople of his day, and he is one of the greatest of the saints, and a defender of Orthodoxy in the face of the Monothelite heresy.[/quote] If it can even be called a criticism, it was done in the spirit of filial charity. We can love our Bishops yet still be disappointed when some of them don't quite live up to the grand calling of their vocation. We ALL "fall short of the glory of God", that means Bishops, too. It's not a mean, cruel criticism like if someone said, "This Bishop here is so awful, he doesn't deserve to be a Bishop" or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1698438' date='Nov 9 2008, 03:34 PM']If it can even be called a criticism, it was done in the spirit of filial charity. We can love our Bishops yet still be disappointed when some of them don't quite live up to the grand calling of their vocation. We ALL "fall short of the glory of God", that means Bishops, too. It's not a mean, cruel criticism like if someone said, "This Bishop here is so awful, he doesn't deserve to be a Bishop" or something like that.[/quote] Reproving those in error is a work of mercy. Nestorius, the bishop of Constantinople, deserved the criticism he got, but sadly he persisted in his error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698444' date='Nov 9 2008, 06:45 PM']Reproving those in error is a work of mercy. Nestorius, the bishop of Constantinople, deserved the criticism he got, but sadly he persisted in his error.[/quote] Interesting that you say that, Apo..."reproving those in error is a work of mercy"...because the Bible DOES say that we are to correct "the elders of the Church" (depending on which translation one uses they may be called "elders" or something else, but it refers to priests, which obviously includes Bishops). It says we are to actually physically APPROACH them and in a spirit of filial charity, we are to correct them. Sometimes--as I would assume like in the case of St. Maximos the Confessor--if the physical approach doesn't work then there may be occasions where it is necessary--and, it could be argued, a Christian IMPERATIVE in defense of the Faith--to correct them publicly, lest the flock be led astray. Edited November 9, 2008 by Madame Vengier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 We had a discussion in pastoral theology about how hard it is to find people to be bishops because they should first be good teachers/preachers, but also have to manage what is basically a multi-million dollar business. I certainly wouldn't want the job. Perhaps the ones who are afraid to speak out should look at what happens to the ones who do. Cardinal Dulles said before the 2004 election that he didn't think the American government would do anything to bishops who speak out on moral issues because that is what they are supposed to do. I mean has Archbishop Chaput's diocese seen a big drop off in attendance or contributions since he has been so vocal? No idea, but it might be interesting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Most heresies have been started by bishops or priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1698457' date='Nov 9 2008, 07:12 PM']We had a discussion in pastoral theology about how hard it is to find people to be bishops because they should first be good teachers/preachers,[/quote] That's the origin of the problem right there: They should FIRST be fathers and shepherds. [Hat tip to "T"] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698458' date='Nov 9 2008, 07:12 PM']Most heresies have been started by bishops or priests.[/quote] That is so sad. But proof that the devil attacks the head in order to weaken the body for destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698092' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:38 PM']Let us not forget that it was the Catholic Center Party in Germany that helped Hitler come to power in 1933.[/quote] WHAT!?!?!?! are you serious???? help Mother Mary~ I am so scared of what might happen till then i guess i can only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1698056' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:55 PM']I can't understand why the bishops don't come out and say, "Look - if you're Catholic and work for the abortion cause, do not receive communion." What are they afraid of?[/quote] THey are afraid of "us". They should have spent more time lsitening to John Paul II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698458' date='Nov 9 2008, 07:12 PM']Most heresies have been started by bishops or priests.[/quote] "The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts." ~ St. John Chrysostom (347-407), Doctor of the Church. Sorry, couldn't help an apt Saint quotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 [quote name='BG45' post='1698561' date='Nov 9 2008, 08:45 PM']"The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts." ~ St. John Chrysostom (347-407), Doctor of the Church.[/quote] Ooh. Never heard that one. Startlingly eyeopening, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 quite. I think I came across it a few years ago in a history class when we were discussing early Christianity and how, as Apotheoun said, most of the heresies get started by bishops and priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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