VeniteAdoremus Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi all, This is probably a *very* sensitive topic. I don't want to come over as judgmental, or suggest that I feel superior to others - that's not it. This is just something that keeps coming up and frankly, I have no idea on how to deal with it. When visiting communities and generally hanging out in staunchly Catholic circles you're bound to run into "hopefuls"... those who would really like to become religious, but aren't in a formal application process. There are about half a dozen of these girls/young women whom I keep running into, and among them are several who... are [i]very[/i] hopeful... and lovely women (honestly)... and wouldn't last a week in religious life. Most of the time they seem to be looking for a certain type of security. While staying at convents, I've shared bedrooms with these girls, and up to a certain level became friends with a couple of them. But they keep talking about their hopes and plans, sometimes formulated as if they are already living them - especially now that I am preparing for entrance. How do I talk with them? Do I go along in their, at the moment, fantasies? When they start about "Well, when I am in the formation house I will...", how do I react? I have no interest in (and am wholly unqualified for) becoming their spiritual director, but it can get very painful. But sometimes I feel I wouldn't be a very good friend if I just let them keep building and building upon their fantasies, and even "talk along" with them because they tend to get upset otherwise. Do you have any experience with this? What do I do, late at night, in the guest bedroom of our local convent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHisLove726 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1777047' date='Feb 9 2009, 05:19 PM']Hi all, This is probably a *very* sensitive topic. I don't want to come over as judgmental, or suggest that I feel superior to others - that's not it. This is just something that keeps coming up and frankly, I have no idea on how to deal with it. When visiting communities and generally hanging out in staunchly Catholic circles you're bound to run into "hopefuls"... those who would really like to become religious, but aren't in a formal application process. There are about half a dozen of these girls/young women whom I keep running into, and among them are several who... are [i]very[/i] hopeful... and lovely women (honestly)... and wouldn't last a week in religious life. Most of the time they seem to be looking for a certain type of security. While staying at convents, I've shared bedrooms with these girls, and up to a certain level became friends with a couple of them. But they keep talking about their hopes and plans, sometimes formulated as if they are already living them - especially now that I am preparing for entrance. How do I talk with them? Do I go along in their, at the moment, fantasies? When they start about "Well, when I am in the formation house I will...", how do I react? I have no interest in (and am wholly unqualified for) becoming their spiritual director, but it can get very painful. But sometimes I feel I wouldn't be a very good friend if I just let them keep building and building upon their fantasies, and even "talk along" with them because they tend to get upset otherwise. Do you have any experience with this? What do I do, late at night, in the guest bedroom of our local convent?[/quote] I know how you feel, and while I'm not going to point the finger and say that I'm better than anyone, there was one girl that I met on retreat who very much wanted to be a Sister but was an odd combination of anti-social and sometimes wanted to be the center of attention. I felt really sorry for her because I know how it feels to want to do something so bad, but everyone tells you it can't be done. I don't think you need to worry though. And I don't think you should say anything. I didn't say anything to the girl because I really didn't want to hurt her feelings. What do I know? What if God was calling her to this lifestyle and I made her turn away from it by telling her she wasn't suitable? I think that if I had done that, it would have been a sin. I am no one, so therefore, I do not desire to stand in anyone's way. I understand your wanting to be the person who helps them, but sometimes you have to let the sleeping dog lie. I'm not suggesting that you nod your head in agreement, just be supportive of them. Put yourself in their shoes and try to understand that discernment isn't easy. If they are not suitable, the religious community will tell them, or they will find out on their own. If it is visible to us bystanders, it will definitely be visible to the community. To rest, I recommend that you say a prayer for this person that they do God's will and pray for their internal conversion. If God truly desires them to be a religious, they need to make the necessary changes. I know you don't want to be responsible for breaking someone's heart, so please leave that to the vocation director who is trained to handle the disappointment. God bless you for caring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mari Therese Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 You also have to bear in mind that some of these girls might be VERY new to the whole discernment thing (i.e. immature), and are perhaps infatuated with the idea of being a religious. I'm sure that I drove a few people nuts when I started discerning. I remember that I even used to feel a bit jealous when I would meet the girls who were about to enter religious life . I would just let them be. Who knows, God might actually be calling them, just not yet. They may just need the time to mature spiritually, and discern more. If they want to pursue religious life for selfish reasons, one of two things will happen: 1. The Vocation directress will see right through them (I've known vocation directors who have told people to go away cuz they're barking up the wrong tree). OR 2. They'll make it into religious life and find out very shortly that it's not the fantasy that they had in mind, and they'll leave or be asked to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 There are a lot of people who are unfit for religious life who discern. And a lot of wackos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiereMargriet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I agree with what the others said. I've experienced this a tiny bit, but I would say just to be kind and nod your head along, etc., without outright condemnation. If they press on, you can just say something like, "Well, I've never felt like that, but everyone's discernment is different." Think of it like St. Therese's Little Way. It may be unrealistic to support them, but they are just becoming aware of their vocation and hopefully a VD will let them know if they are knocking at the wrong door, so just give them that little gift of kindness on your part. I hope this helps, but I understand that it is a difficult situation indeed! And I'm so awkward in social situations to begin with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moon_child_anne Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I agree with all that's been said. Perhaps these people are just a bit immature in their discernment if God is calling them. Be supportive of them by listening to what they have to say, but be very careful about what you tell them regarding your own vocation...so that they won't become infatuated with what you say...be very choosy as to what you share, but listen to them with an open ear. I was in the same place some time back...infatuated so much with religious life and a certain community that I used to fantasize even wearing the cross of the community... It turned out that that community wasn't a good fit, or the timing was just off, because I've entered another community and it's a good fit so far... So, that doesn't mean that I wasn't being called, just something was off the first-go-round. Get what I'm saying? God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHisLove726 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I wanted to add to my earlier post that I think we all romanticize religious life at least a little in the beginning. I know I did because I visited a convent in St. Louis and it was not what I expected, but in a good way, because my views were changed to meet the order's, and I am still discerning with that order, but just a different province. I remember talking to my friend while I was there that I had discovered how I was romanticizing things. I was certainly given an eye-opener, and I learned that I was being immature about things. I think I differ in the way that I wasn't looking for a "certain type of security". I was always sure that I was doing it because God was calling me. I remember feeling the pain of the blow when one of the Sisters emailed me that she didn't think I should come to the next retreat. She thought I should focus on schoolwork. It really hurt at the time, but I did what she said and realized that God was telling her that it was not right. I was so happy to learn that. In time, these girls will realize that: A) they are called to this lifestyle but their expectations need to change (like mine did) or B) they are barking up the wrong tree and will be brokenhearted to learn that the Vocation Director doesn't think they are right for the convent, or they will learn it after they enter Sooner or later, the truth will appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think we all go through this.... or at least most of us. Even the saints, like St. Teresa of the Andes. She would think about what it would be like when she would be "a Carmelita." And she probably sounded very immature to some too, and there was a time when she really struggled with wanting to be the center of attention and well... God is purifying all of us. It can be painful to watch someone act in an immature manner, but (lol) I am convinced we have all done so at one point or another. We are all just being purified. I have only met a couple girls like this... perhaps I am someone like this ... I always try to give the benefit of the doubt, and I hope they do become religious because the Church needs men and women to step up to the call, and God will take care of the rest and purify them and fix all the little imperfections... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 It is true that the religious life attracts crazy people and people trying to hide/escape from messy lives. So, in that sense, I would not be surprised if some of the people coming to visit a convent are *not* cut out for religious life in any sense. They may be shocked or disappointed to be told 'no', but it is the responsibility of the Vocations Director to give them the bad news. Rejection hurts, but it is necessary in those cases. But obviously not everyone who is attracted to religious life is crazy . Some people are just immature, and will have to do a lot of growing before they would be able to enter a religious order. Sometimes a group doesn't say 'no' but says 'not yet', or offers an alternative course to help the person learn more about themselves. I knew someone whose social skills were....well, abysmal. I think he had Aspergers (on the Autism spectrum), so clearly some social situations were very, very difficult for him. The Order he visited after 9/11 told him to get more experience with community living before applying (actually, I have no idea how far in the application process he got). So, he joined their lay volunteer organization and lived in community with some other lay people for a year. I think that taught him a lot about what community life is all about, and as far as I know, he has not expressed any interest in joining a religious community after that experience. He did, however, launch into his vocation story at the drop of a hat at the beginning of that year, so I'm sure some of his listeners were a bit uncomfortable listening to him. I have to go along with everyone else and say - let nature take its course. The truth will come out, and a big part of discernment is learning to see yourself honestly. Just avoid giving a lot of approval. Listen, offer to pray for the person, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradMom Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 +Praised be Jesus Christ! The first time my daughter (the Benedictine) and I visited the community she ended up entering we were housed in an open dormitory-type guest room of their women's guest house. There was a lady there who was very intent upon entering the community. Clearly, she had special needs (emotionally) and most likely would not have been able to cope with the various aspects of monastic life. (Obviously, I realize, this is an extreme example.) Since we were all together, conversation did last well into the night and both my daughter and I realized that the poor dear was having difficulties with reality. The next day, we discussed it and my daughter was at first almost panicked (to put it mildly) that she would end up entering and she would be "stuck" with her during formation! (Amazing how things often end up being about "ourselves," isn't it?) After some further discussion, we ended up praying for her. And...we prayed for ourselves especially. We are all the walking wounded, to borrow a phrase. It would be wonderful to enter a community with fully functioning, healthy, bright, happy people, but we all carry a cross...and should that woman have ended up entering with my daughter (she didn't - and God bless the community, they allowed her to come to her own decision about whether or not the life was suitable for her!), my little Benedictine would have had to grow and stretch emotionally and spiritually to live with her. I am active in our parish and I am also very active with our Secular Carmelites (of which I am one). I have often noticed that religious "groups" - be it Churches, Monasteries, Convents, whatever! can attract some of our neediest people. This can often be very difficult - on all involved. I have seen minor problems escalate into huge ones. I could really carry this further, but in the end, this is one of the challenges of living a religious life. It's also one of the reasons I wish some communities would be more mindful of what they post on the internet - there are truly strange and unhealthy (God bless them) people out there. In short, trust that God is knowing what He's doing. In the event you think He needs an assistant, go to the Mother Superior and share anything you might have noticed or think she needs to know and keep praying! Congratulations on following through on your vocation. TradMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osapientia Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 [quote name='TradMom' post='1785688' date='Feb 19 2009, 06:23 PM']I am active in our parish and I am also very active with our Secular Carmelites (of which I am one). I have often noticed that religious "groups" - be it Churches, Monasteries, Convents, whatever! can attract some of our neediest people. This can often be very difficult - on all involved. I have seen minor problems escalate into huge ones. I could really carry this further, but in the end, this is one of the challenges of living a religious life. It's also one of the reasons I wish some communities would be more mindful of what they post on the internet - there are truly strange and unhealthy (God bless them) people out there. In short, trust that God is knowing what He's doing. In the event you think He needs an assistant, go to the Mother Superior and share anything you might have noticed or think she needs to know and keep praying! Congratulations on following through on your vocation. TradMom[/quote] I agree, TradMom that we are all wounded. Serious mental or emotional illness not withstanding, three things come to mind: In his Rule, St. Benedict says we must "bear with" the infirmities (of both body and soul) of our brothers/sisters in community. God does not call the equipped, He equips the called. My spiritual director (a former Carthusain of 7 years, now a diocesan priest) is fond of saying that "If the Church is a hospital for sinners then the monastery, it could be said, is Intensive Care". God calls all kinds...for some of us it takes longer to settle into "reality"....and then let's not forget the very "odd" (and very rare souls, of which I am NOT one) who are the true mystics among us and may have a very different approach to "real life" because of this grace. I know that I tend toward being a romantic in just about everything I do....now for me it's a tendency not an obsession, so it is tempered with good doses of reality taken willingly and seriously but never taken as the "whole picture" - I won't give up on romance entirely, it's just not "me" to do so and since I only have "me" to give to Jesus, I'm hoping He won't mind some romance now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 TradMom, you are so right in saying that it usually ends up being about ourselves (Lord, forgive us our weak human nature) and how we will cope with this other person. The funny thing is that we will encounter injured and damaged people even after we enter, not just when discerning or during our postulancy and Novitiate. Some of the most difficult people I encountered in convents were fully professed nuns - women who had been in religious life anywhere from 20-60 years!!! Each time I was shocked, because for some reason I expected that over time, all the rough edges would have been worn off, and they would all be saintly and holy. But St John of the Cross put it so well when he described our brothers and sisters in religious life as tools that God uses to shape us into what is most pleasing to Him. And in the same way, we, with all our woundedness and faults, are tools for God to use in shaping others. Knowing this might help just a little but it still doesn't make it easy to deal with others who might be mean or verbally abusive or just plain difficult (as seen through our eyes). So your advice is spot on - we must pray for each other, and also for ourselves - for the gifts of the Holy Spirit of tolerance and compassion for each other. And we need to thank God for each person He places in our path - because only He knows what we need to learn from them or through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Really, I have run to some of them, some have longing for something that isnt quite enough of what they wanted in a praticular order. some have been running all over the country trying to find the proper place for them, in which they would feel secure enough and searches for a"perfect order" that will soothe to their appeal. I think being yourself and letting them know that being a religious is not sleeping in a bed of roses but sleeping uder the crosses. reminding her that God is the one that called her in a certain community, and that she needs to stop running around looking for a community that will satisfy her lifesyle. Yes, you have to know the spirit of the order and if it will lead you more closely to the Divine Savior. But to think also there is no such as a perfect community/order. we are being called to follow Jesus into the cross and that is what we should look for. to console and be with HIM on the cross. This will give them a little idea about what religious life is all about and that fantasies and illusions are good source for decernment but can lead us too to total dissapointment when fantasies are not met. Edited February 22, 2009 by heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I've met many like this. My solution would be to listen, but don't say much against their ideas... Just share [i]your[/i] story. That's all you are called to do. Perhaps your experience will open up their eyes a little. Don't be surprised when you enter, there will be more girls like this in the convent with you in the novitiate! And don't be surprised when some of them persevere, because even though right now they seem clueless, they have the opportunity to grow into their call... ...who knows, they may even become Saints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1787873' date='Feb 21 2009, 11:15 PM']And don't be surprised when some of them persevere, because even though right now they seem clueless, they have the opportunity to grow into their call... ...who knows, they may even become Saints![/quote] Well said! We simply can't judge each other too harshly because no one knows the heart of human being except God. [quote name='heart' post='1787828' date='Feb 21 2009, 10:17 PM']I think being yourself and letting them know that being a religious is not sleeping in a bed of roses but sleeping uder the crosses. reminding her that God is the one that called her in a certain community, and that she needs to stop running around looking for a community that will satisfy her lifesyle. Yes, you have to know the spirit of the order and if it will lead you more closely to the Divine Savior. But to think also there is no such as a perfect community/order. we are being called to follow Jesus into the cross and that is what we should look for. to console and be with HIM on the cross. This will give them a little idea about what religious life is all about and that fantasies and illusions are good source for decernment but can lead us too to total dissapointment when fantasies are not met.[/quote] I'm sure you don't mean it to, but this comes across as a little judgmental to me. Not everyone who visits different communities is trying to fulfill their "fantasies". It is true that many of us (myself included) probably suffer from a little too much "romanticism" with regard to religious life, but that isn't any worse than being a bit romantic about love and marriage - as long as the romanticism is tempered by common sense as well. In the Rule of St Albert, it is written that "common sense is the guide to the virtues" And although some people might know exactly where God is calling them, others like myself might need to spend a little more time in discernment to find this out. I know that I totally loved the two months I spent as a hermit, but I also knew that this was not where God was calling me to serve Him. And it had nothing to do with fantasies or hardships or refusing to "console Him on the Cross". So, in all things, we need to err on the side of charity towards each other. Edited February 22, 2009 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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