The Catholic Faith

[phatcatholic]

i don't think its the "who" we trust, but the "what." and that "what" is the doctrine, it is orthodoxy, it is right belief. afterall, you can find spirit-filled, holy people in ever denomination. you can find sinners in every one as well. the "who" is not what separates us. it is the doctrine, our difference in belief.

alot of people choose a church based on how nice the people are. but, hanging out w/ nice people is not what gets us to heaven. what gets us to heaven is how faithfully we live what we believe. that's why our beliefs are so important. we must believe what is True to be united with Truth one day. and when we have Truth, it is the sure foundation when everything else fails. a priest can be charged w/ sexual molestation, a bishop can be caught in a hit-and-run, a youth group leader can make unwanted advances upon children--AND I WILL NOT BE SCANDALIZED. why? b/c the misbehavior of those within the Church does not change the Truth, the foundation upon which the Church is built. the Church is Holy (one of the four marks of the Church) because its doctrine is protected from error by the Holy Spirit and b/c thousands (millions? billions?) of men and women are alive with Christ in heaven b/c they held fast to this doctrine. the aforementioned sinners will never change that.

so, as a newborn Christian, you must ask yourself, can i trust this doctrine? i think there are at least a couple of ways to answer this question:

[b]1. [/b][i]is the doctrine of my particular denomination consistent across the board? are there any specific doctrines that are internally inconsistent, or that contradict other doctrines. [/i]

in my opinion, Sola Scriptura is the end-all of red flags when it comes to this first test. i mean, Sola Scriptura is so internally inconsistent its almost funny:

--all truth is found in the bible, yet the mere premise of "scripture only" is not found there. one could even say that this premise is contradictory to what the bible says.
--the canon of the bible, which all protestants believe as true and inspired, is not in the bible.
--pastors stand up in front of their congregations and praise private interpretation, but, if they preach it to hard then the congregation will come up w/ their own interpretations and he will lose his authority as a pastor! so, pastors contradict themselves b/c in one hand they preach "every man for himself" but in the other hand they preach "but you better believe my interpretation."
--sola scriptura turns the defense of any doctrine formed off of that into a viscious cycle of circular reasoning.
--attached to this is the idea of personal inspiration by the Holy Spirit, but the mere presence of so many protestant denominations (who cares about the #, two is one too many) proves that this "personal inspiration" theory does not work.

so, consistency says alot about the validity of doctrine. if doctrine is Truth then it will not contradict itself. here is another test:

[b]2. [/b][i]what is the history behind my doctrine? is this what christians have always believed? or, are my beliefs inventions of a modern time?[/i]

as a catholic, i just don't understand how this test is not sincerely troublesome to every single protestant. they just seem okay w/ the fact that sola scriptura and sola fide DID NOT EXIST until the reformation. they also seem okay w/ the fact that the earliest recorded christian testimony reveals beliefs common only to the Catholic Church. that just doesn't make sense to me.

anyway, those are just two tests--and i'm sure there are many others--to determine if doctrine is trustworthy and TRUE. in the battle to win souls, it is critical that we fight for this Truth at all costs. and, as a newborn Christian, it is critical that Truth in Christ is the ultimate goal. afterall it is this Truth that saves us, and that allows us to save others.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

First, you mention "new-born Christian". Please define your term.

Next, What makes your second test trustworthy? Could it not be that throughout parts of history Christians were in an extreme minority and the Catholic Church was a pagan force in the world?

Finally, how do we know what history to trust?

Thank you,
Bro. Adam

[Brother Adam]

Please understand that I never mean any disrespect by my questions. I am merely trying to look at this from different angles.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 3 2004, 02:04 PM'] First, you mention "new-born Christian". Please define your term. [/quote]
i was talking about the new Christian who's trust we are attempting to gain, the hypothetical person you are referring to in the following quote:
[quote]There is a spiritual war, a spiritual struggle going on in our world today. Christians Catholic and non-Catholic alike are scrambling to "win" souls for Christ and the Church. Whenever someone makes a decision to join a group all of the other groups go "Wait! and But!".[/quote]

now, to your second question:

[quote]Next, What makes your second test trustworthy? Could it not be that throughout parts of history Christians were in an extreme minority and the Catholic Church was a pagan force in the world? [/quote]
are you really saying that "true Christianity" was such a minority that there is [i][b]no evidence[/b][/i] of their existence? no record of them in ancient historical works and no allusion to them even in the testimonies of the "dominant, pagan" religion? one would expect that such a "minority" would at least be mentioned.

plus, there were many beliefs and sects circulating during the early years of the church that were a significant minority, yet they were still heard. the waldenses, the albigensians, the cathartists (sp?), arians, and so on. these were all significant minorities yet we know of them. even the Catholic Church was a minority for the first 300-400 years of its existence, but we have record of her beliefs from as early as [b]80 AD[/b]. all of this evidence says to me that minority status does not necessarily mean absence from the historical record. the idea that "true christianity" could totally disappear seems like some definite special-pleading if you ask me.

secondly, much work is needed to prove that the Catholic Church is "pagan." many assume that a similarity between a pagan belief or diety and a catholic belief automatically means that one came from the other. however, it takes much more then similarity to prove causality. furthermore, the similarities don't stop w/ the particularly "catholic" beliefs. pagan religions have trinities, man-Gods, Father Gods, and other beliefs that mirror basic christian beliefs. so, under this same logic, one must call belief in Christ and in the Trinity pagan concepts as well.

finally, what is "true christianity" if it does not include Catholicism? any definition that attempts to define christianity while at the same time excluding catholicism can only find its origin around 1500AD. plus, every catholic doctrine is found in the bible, at least implicitly, and there are NO catholic beliefs that are anti-biblical.

in my opinion, its just too unrealistic to try and substantiate such a theory.

[quote]Finally, how do we know what history to trust? [/quote]
well, for one i think you look at objective sources. read from historians who don't have an axe to grind. believe it or not, there are many protestant theologians and historians that are in agreement w/ the "catholic" view of history. i think this says alot.

secondly, i think much of history is in black in white, in the writings of the people from the day, for the whole world to read for themselves. no middle man or biased interpreter. just pure truth. its obvious from their very writings that the earliest christians believed, fought, bled, [i][b]gave their life[/b][/i] for the very doctrines that catholics hold dear. this is unavoidable, and is a huge testament to the truth that is found both in history and in the catholic church.

i hope this is an adequate response....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

for further reading (i hope this isn't annoying):

[i]"The Church is Pagan"[/i]
[b]--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]Is Catholicism Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/frjoe/bigot4.htm"]Is the Roman Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ377.HTM"]Is Catholicism Half-Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/otherihs.html"]Do Catholics Worship Another Jesus?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/christian.html"]Is the Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html"]Is the Blessed Trinity a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan2.html"]Is the Incarnation a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan3.html"]Is the Virgin Birth Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan4.html"]God's That Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan5.html"]Is Marian Devotion Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/marian12.html"]Mariolatry???[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan7.html"]Do Catholics Worship the Sun?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html"]Are Christmas and Easter Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/03724b.htm"]Christmas[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a99.htm"]Santa or Satan?: Reply to a Funny Fundamentalist [/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm"]Easter[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/HALLWEEN.HTM"]Halloween: Its Origins and Celebration[/url]
--[url="http://answers.org/Issues/Halloween.html"]What about Halloween?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/ex204.html"]Graven Images?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/acts1025.html"]Pope Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/sunbursts.htm"]Of Sunbursts, Baals, and Adventist Paranoia[/url][/b]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for your time and patience. You have been very informative and I have added everything here to a website for future reference:

[url="http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Scriptures-dialogue1.htm"]http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Scriptures-dialogue1.htm[/url]

[phatcatholic]

well, i suppose this concludes our discussion. i thank you for your time and patience as well. Good Luck to you and may God Bless You in your search for truth.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

nostalgia

[phatcatholic]

haha, dope

[Selah]

great gilbo batman! Phatcatholic posted!

[Vincent Vega]

This thread is awesome.