Why Did Satan Hate God So Much ?

[kafka]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1789133' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:01 AM']kafka - Thank you. I would like to see more quotes from the New Testament in Our Lord's reported words, but I do get your point. My slant here though is that we need to focus on our love for God, not on any hatred for Satan. Not only did St Michael refuse to rebuke Satan, but we are also told that only God has the right to judge - not us.

St John the Apostle says [i]"This is what we have heard from him and are declaring to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. "[/i]

If God does hate (you say: "Yet here we are talking about a hate which stems from God hating the evil of sin."), then He does it in a way that we can't do, because in Him there is no darkness, whereas hatred in us is very dark indeed.

You say your way is more balanced, but to me, I think sometimes that Jesus' words are not taken literally enough (as unbalanced as this might seem)...

Jesus said, [i]"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, [b]love your enemies[/b], bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for [u]He makes His sun to rise on the evil [/u]and on the good, and [u]sends rain on the just and on the unjust[/u]. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect"[/i] (Matthew 5:43-48).

So how can we follow Our Lord's teachings if we are spending our time hating, even Satan? When Jesus was with the Apostle's before His Passion, he told them that Satan was coming but He also said,
[i]"I shall not talk to you much longer, because the prince of this world is on his way. [b]He has no power over me, but the world must recognise that I love the Father [/b]and that I act just as the Father commanded. Come now, let us go. "[/i] (John:14:30-31)

He didn't focus on Satan or express any hatred towards him, he was more intent on letting everyone know that He loved the Father! This is my model, as much as is possible for me.[/quote]
You make good points. I agree with your slant. My point was to show that both you and Delivery Boy are expressing truth in differnt ends of the spectrum. Here when I am speaking about hating like God it is directed toward fallen angels and damned men who can no longer repent, who have made their final choice and not towards our fellow living men and ourselves who are all sinners. Personally I dont spend anytime hating fallen angels and damned men or even thinking about them, yet there is a latent aspect where it is just to hate them, and that is where I think Delivery Boy was coming from.

God is the Judge, yet the just will share in His judgment at the General Judgment even judging the fallen angels. So there is that other aspect, but I agree with you, we shouldnt focus on it at all. We have enough on our plates

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1789155' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:34 AM']yet there is a latent aspect where it is just to hate them, and that is where I think Delivery Boy was coming from.[/quote]


yep, i should spend less time on it though and more time on improving myself.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1789059' date='Feb 22 2009, 09:47 PM']I just dont agree with the part where you say we should try to love the good in satan. What good is there in satan ? If the Bible is true and I am to believe it I see no good in satan. Satan knew what would happen if he tempted adam and eve. Look at the world we live in. People are starving, people are murdered brutally everyday, and on top of that Christ was beaten on a cross because of the fall of mankind which came from satan. Satan hated us or he wouldn't have introduced death into the world. Yes adam and even disobeyed but it was a result of a temptation by satan. If satan never would of did what he did then he would have never been there to tempt us. I see no love in him and therefore find it impossible to love the good in him.[/quote]

deliveryboy -- I guess we have a different opinion on why there is so much suffering in the world. You put it all on Satan, and none of it on the nature of fallen mankind! Yet, even Jesus called us evil when He said...

[i]"Is there anyone among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread?
Or would hand him a snake when he asked for a fish? If you, then, [b]evil as you are[/b], know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matt 7:7-11)[/i]

There is much evil and suffering in today's world that is caused by selfishness and greed. Satan might be tempting people, but don't we have a choice? God allows temptation to help strengthen us in the virtues of faith and hope and charity, but if we refuse to choose what is right, then we are responsible for our choices, and the effect these choices have on the world around us. To deny our responsibility is like a child blaming others for what they have done!

This is not to say that Satan isn't evil - of course he is. But God allows his existence to continue, and God is all good, so that means that we are not constrained to do evil just because we are tempted. That is what free will is all about. We are free to choose evil or to choose good.

If you read Job, you will see that God allowed Satan to test Job to the limits of his endurance, but as Job said...
[i]"And yet he knows every step I take! Let him test me in the crucible: I shall come out pure gold." (Job 23:10)[/i]

So instead of wasting your time hating Satan, spend your time loving God and praising Him, and striving to do only His will -- much more pleasant too

Besides, nothing would be more irritating to someone who is full of pride, than to be ignored. Ignore Satan or scorn him, but don't pander to his pride by making him important enough to hate! Just my perspective of course.

Edited February 23, 2009 by nunsense

[AccountDeleted]

You guys are too quick for me - by the time I have one post done, you have already replied with more!

deliveryboy - you have a passion for justice - that is beautiful. and kafka, you have a great wealth of knowledge - thank you.

Call me a romantic - I just find love so much more pleasant than any of the alternatives Thanks guys!

[Guest]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1789161' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:43 AM']deliveryboy -- I guess we have a different opinion on why there is so much suffering in the world. You put it all on Satan, and none of it on the nature of fallen mankind! Yet, even Jesus called us evil when He said...

[i]"Is there anyone among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread?
Or would hand him a snake when he asked for a fish? If you, then, [b]evil as you are[/b], know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matt 7:7-11)[/i]

[font="Arial Black"]There is much evil and suffering in today's world that is caused by selfishness and greed. Satan might be tempting people, but don't we have a choice? [/font]God allows temptation to help strengthen us in the virtues of faith and hope and charity, but if we refuse to choose what is right, then we are responsible for our choices, and the effect these choices have on the world around us. To deny our responsibility is like a child blaming others for what they have done!

This is not to say that Satan isn't evil - of course he is. But God allows his existence to continue, and God is all good, so that means that we are not constrained to do evil just because we are tempted. That is what free will is all about. We are free to choose evil or to choose good.

If you read Job, you will see that God allowed Satan to test Job to the limits of his endurance, but as Job said...
[i]"And yet he knows every step I take! Let him test me in the crucible: I shall come out pure gold." (Job 23:10)[/i]

So instead of wasting your time hating Satan, spend your time loving God and praising Him, and striving to do only His will -- much more pleasant too

Besides, nothing would be more irritating to someone who is full of pride, than to be ignored. Ignore Satan or scorn him, but don't pander to his pride by making him important enough to hate! Just my perspective of course.[/quote]


Hey Godbless,

I see what you are saying and you make sence. But what I am saying is this, If satan never tempted us we would of never fell. God didnt tempt us satan did. If satan was obedient to God I would assume we would still be all one happy family. But no satan hated God and therefore hated us and caused us to sin and bring death into the world.

I agree that we choose to sin if we do. And we all do at times. But it still doesnt change the fact that this world is a ugly cold place sometimes because of satan tempting us to begin with.(adam and eve and original sin) I live a good life and God has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams. But I also know there are peoople who suffer who dont deserve to suffer. These people dont suffer because God wants to test them (in my humble opinon) They suffer becasue this world is gone astray and satan is the God of it. So by satan tempting us at the very start and us falling innocent people suffer the way they do today.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Guest

[kafka]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1789161' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:43 AM']deliveryboy -- I guess we have a different opinion on why there is so much suffering in the world. You put it all on Satan, and none of it on the nature of fallen mankind! Yet, even Jesus called us evil when He said...

[i]"Is there anyone among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread?
Or would hand him a snake when he asked for a fish? If you, then, [b]evil as you are[/b], know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matt 7:7-11)[/i]

There is much evil and suffering in today's world that is caused by selfishness and greed. Satan might be tempting people, but don't we have a choice? God allows temptation to help strengthen us in the virtues of faith and hope and charity, but if we refuse to choose what is right, then we are responsible for our choices, and the effect these choices have on the world around us. To deny our responsibility is like a child blaming others for what they have done!

This is not to say that Satan isn't evil - of course he is. But God allows his existence to continue, and God is all good, so that means that we are not constrained to do evil just because we are tempted. That is what free will is all about. We are free to choose evil or to choose good.

If you read Job, you will see that God allowed Satan to test Job to the limits of his endurance, but as Job said...
[i]"And yet he knows every step I take! Let him test me in the crucible: I shall come out pure gold." (Job 23:10)[/i]

So instead of wasting your time hating Satan, spend your time loving God and praising Him, and striving to do only His will -- much more pleasant too

Besides, nothing would be more irritating to someone who is full of pride, than to be ignored. Ignore Satan or scorn him, but don't pander to his pride by making him important enough to hate! Just my perspective of course.[/quote]
Now you are being to harsh on Delivery Boy. You should not presume to teach him. He is an adult man and you are an adult women. Mary who is the perfect adult woman never taught Jesus when he was an adult man.

Delivery Boy brings up some profound questions, which are very good. Do not use them to correct him.

You are beating a dead horse, I dont think D-Boy is too much over-emphasizing Satan. He is seriously considering this aspect of the world where Satan and the fallen angels do in fact roam the earth and tempt and influence men in spite of themselves. And because this world today is very sinful God in His justice allows Satan and the fallen angels to have a greater influence. Therefore his considerations are important.

Edited February 23, 2009 by kafka

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1789170' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:55 AM']He is seriously considering this aspect of the world where Satan and the fallen angels do in fact roam the earth and tempt and influence men in spite of themselves. And because this world today is very sinful God in His justice allows Satan and the fallen angels to have a greater influence. Therefore his considerations are important.[/quote]

Yes and the fact that satan tempted mankind to begin with. He hated us from the start or he wouldnt of tempted us and introduced death to us. God tried to save us yet He couldnt take our free will away.

But yet satan already knew the choice he made in heaven to hate God and start this eternal war. He saw us (humans) and decided to bring us into the war also. Yes we chose to let original sin infect us yet that still doesnt change the fact that for satan is was probally like luring a 5 year old with candy to kidnap him.

Again I look at the world today and see all the suffering and killing. I know indivigual people choose to sin everyday. But still this is a result from the garden and satan tempting us to begin with. Satan has no love in him or he wouldnt of started this war with God.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Guest

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='kafka' post='1789170' date='Feb 22 2009, 11:55 PM']Now you are being to harsh on Delivery Boy. You should not presume to teach him. He is an adult man and you are an adult women. Mary who is the perfect adult woman never taught Jesus when he was an adult man.

Delivery Boy brings up some profound questions, which are very good. Do not use them to correct him.

You are beating a dead horse, I dont think D-Boy is too much over-emphasizing Satan. He is seriously considering this aspect of the world where Satan and the fallen angels do in fact roam the earth and tempt and influence men in spite of themselves. And because this world today is very sinful God in His justice allows Satan and the fallen angels to have a greater influence. Therefore his considerations are important.[/quote]

Wow! And I thought this conversation was going so well until I read this post! Now I think you are being harsh to me! You accuse me of being presumptious and then tell me that Our Blessed Mother did not presume to teach Jesus! Where did this come from?? I should certainly never compare myself in any way to Our Lady, nor do I believe that deliveryboy would compare himself to Our Lord! What a non sequitur.

I certainly didn't intend to do anything more than support my own personal views with quotes from the Bible, just as you did. If teaching occurs, then it does so, but not because I felt any desire to teach or preach, but because I saw things slightly differently than deliveryboy did and wanted to express myself on this forum.

I thought we were having a discussion and exchanging ideas with the intention to learn from each other. It appears that I am mistaken. I will withdraw from this discussion now because it seems to be evoking a distinct unpleasantness. I still believe that both of you are focusing on Satan too much -- I may be beating a dead horse or not, but the tone of your last post shows me that focusing on evil doesn't breed charity.

[Guest]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1789187' date='Feb 23 2009, 03:35 AM']Wow! And I thought this conversation was going so well until I read this post! Now I think you are being harsh to me! You accuse me of being presumptious and then tell me that Our Blessed Mother did not presume to teach Jesus! Where did this come from?? I should certainly never compare myself in any way to Our Lady, nor do I believe that deliveryboy would compare himself to Our Lord! What a non sequitur.

I certainly didn't intend to do anything more than support my own personal views with quotes from the Bible, just as you did. If teaching occurs, then it does so, but not because I felt any desire to teach or preach, but because I saw things slightly differently than deliveryboy did and wanted to express myself on this forum.

I thought we were having a discussion and exchanging ideas with the intention to learn from each other. It appears that I am mistaken. I will withdraw from this discussion now because it seems to be evoking a distinct unpleasantness. I still believe that both of you are focusing on Satan too much -- I may be beating a dead horse or not, but the tone of your last post shows me that focusing on evil doesn't breed charity. [/quote]


Dont leave the thread !
I aprreciate your view and where you are coming from.
Godbless.

[kafka]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1789165' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:48 AM']You guys are too quick for me - by the time I have one post done, you have already replied with more!

deliveryboy - you have a passion for justice - that is beautiful. and kafka, you have a great wealth of knowledge - thank you.

Call me a romantic - I just find love so much more pleasant than any of the alternatives Thanks guys![/quote]
Well I guessed I missed this post. Sorry.

Still there is nothing with comparing oneself with Jesus and Mary since ultimately we must imitate them and live up to their examples in some way, in our our own unique ways, in our own participation of salvation.

[Guest]

[quote name='nunsense' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:43 AM' post='1789161']


[font="Arial Black"][i]"Is there anyone among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread?
Or would hand him a snake when he asked for a fish? If you, then, [b]evil as you are[/b], know how to give your children what is good, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!" (Matt 7:7-11)[/[/font]i] quote]




Hello nunsence....
Another view of this is when Jesus calls us evil it's because of our fallen nature. If we would of never fell we wouldn't be evil. (I think ? ) So again it goes back to satan putting us in this situation to begin with.

But more then anything I think you are correct on the part we should worry about loving Jesus. The past is the past and there is nothen we can do about it no matter how much we would like to. So I do see where you are coming from and take your advice because it is true and helpfull. Godbless

Edited February 23, 2009 by Guest

[kafka]

I apologize nunsense. I have a tendency in my knowledge towards pharaseism. I certainly do not want to be like them so forgive me.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='kafka' post='1789203' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:37 AM']I apologize nunsense. I have a tendency in my knowledge towards pharaseism. I certainly do not want to be like them so forgive me.[/quote]

kafka, that is very gracious of you. If you won't take it the wrong way, I would like to quote from Darth Vader in Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back (I think) and say,
"Apology accepted, Captain Nido."

The Internet is notorious for being the source of misunderstanding, because we lack the physical signs like body language and the immediacy of response.

Friends again

[Guest]

is your avatar of mary ?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1789200' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:27 AM']Hello nunsence....
Another view of this is when Jesus calls us evil it's because of our fallen nature. If we would of never fell we wouldn't be evil. (I think ? ) So again it goes back to satan putting us in this situation to begin with.

But more then anything I think you are correct on the part we should worry about loving Jesus. The past is the past and there is nothen we can do about it no matter how much we would like to. So I do see where you are coming from and take your advice because it is true and helpfull. Godbless[/quote]

Thank you for wanting to continue our discussion. I will write some things that I think, but I am not trying to preach or teach - just writing my observations...

So, yes, I do see your point, but I guess I place the responsibility more on Adam and Eve than on Satan, because they could have chosen to trust God's word and not that of the evil one, but they didn't. You say that if we had never fallen, we wouldn't be evil. Well, it is true that we were at peace with God in the beginning, but our father and mother (Adam and Eve) chose to disobey God. Yes, they were tempted, but they chose to give into the temptation. If they had never been tempted, you could say they were good - but were they really? God obviously wanted to see if they would obey His will or not, or He wouldn't have let Satan test them - unfortunately they failed.

Abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son to obey God - he must have been tempted to disobey this command! But he passed his test. And of course, when Jesus was tempted by Satan, He didn't succumb. So temptations don't have to have control over us.

We face choice every day between good and evil, and if we fall, we could try to blame Satan for tempting us, ors we could admit that we had succumbed of our own free will (and then go to Confession!). We are blessed to have the Sacrament of Reconciliation to help us make amends and to reconcile us to God.

I guess I go along more with St Paul, who focused on the sin of Adam rather than on the temptations of the devil -- in Romans Chapter 5...

[i]17 It was by one man's offence that death came to reign over all, but how much greater the reign in life of those who receive the fullness of grace and the gift of saving justice, through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 One man's offence brought condemnation on all humanity; and one man's good act has brought justification and life to all humanity.
19 Just as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience are many to be made upright. " [/i]

And while I also agree with you that what Jesus endured is unbearable to think about, it is also such an amazing act of love that it inspires confidence and trust in God, Our Father, who would allow such a thing, so we [u]must [/u]think about it. And if we can weep for His Passion then we are truly blest, because Padre Pio said that if we cannot weep for the Passion of Christ, then what can we weep for? Padre Pio always suffered greatly during Mass and this interview with him shows how it was man's offences that hurt Our Lord... (excerpts only)

[i]Cleonice Morcaldi, one of the spiritual daughters of Padre Pio, asked him several times what he felt and lived in each of his Masses. She wrote carefully each of his answers and thanks to her, we have a unique testimony from the Father himself about his Mass.

- Father, why do you almost always cry when you read the Gospel in the Holy Mass?

– And do you find it little thing that a God talks to His creatures, and they react against Him? That he is injured constantly by their ingratitude and incredulity?

– Why do you suffer so much during the Consecration?

– You ask me why I suffer. I would like to shed not a few tears but abundant tears. Are you not conscious of the tremendous mystery? God, Victim of our sins! And we are His executioners!

The Father was asked:

– What is the Sacred Communion?

– It is interior and exterior Mercy. A total Embrace. Do not stop begging Jesus to make Himself sensibly noticed.

– What does Jesus do at Communion?

– He delights in His creatures.

– Is Communion an incorporation?

– It is a fusion. Like two candles that fuse together and cannot be distinguished one from the other.

– When you go to Mass, continues Padre Pio, concentrate to the maximum on the great mystery being celebrated in your presence: "The redemption of your soul and the reconciliation with God."

– Father, does the Lord love the Sacrifice?

– Yes, because with It He has regenerated the world.

– How much glory to God does the Mass give?

– An infinite glory.

– What should we do during the Mass?

– Be compassionate and love.

– What kind of fruits do we receive when we hear the Mass?

– They cannot be enumerated. You will know it only in Paradise.
[/i]


So, I am not alone in stressing that man has killed his God through his sins. The evil one may be an instrument of sin, but we simply must accept our own part in causing Our Lord's suffering and death through OUR OWN CHOICE but we must also never forget the great love that God has for us that caused Him to offer His Son for us, and the grace of the Eucharist that Our Lord has given us to unite ourselves with Him. That is why we say at the Mass "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you..." because we are sinners. But God is all good and all love, and makes us worthy through His Son's sacrifice.

Ok, enough... I get very caried away sometimes - I am so inspired by Our Lord, but I do pass the bounds and become preachy -- sorry..... but Our God is an Awesome God