Should Heretics Be Burned?

[Patrick]

Interesting. People are starting to vote yes. :-)

[Apotheoun]

I think that excommunication is a sufficient punishment.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1894575' date='Jun 17 2009, 03:57 PM']Interesting. People are starting to vote yes. :-)[/quote]
Resurrexi probably just cast his vote.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1894556' date='Jun 17 2009, 05:49 PM']You seem to be adding a lot of conditions that weren't in the original bull. Are there other sources that refine this one?[/quote]

We must interpret Pope Leo X's [i]Exsurge Domine[/i] in light of the the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], which states:

'Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."' ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], No. 2267)

Edited June 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1894589' date='Jun 17 2009, 04:05 PM']We must interpret Pope Leo X's [i]Exsurge Domine[/i] in light of the the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], which states:

'Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."' ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], No. 2267)[/quote]

Thank you. Is there a source that delineates the relationship between ex cathedra pronoucements and documents like the Catechism of the Catholic Church (I don't know what class of documents this is)? My first reaction would be that the Catechism would have to be interpreted in light of the ex cathedra statement and not the other way around.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1894616' date='Jun 17 2009, 06:23 PM']Thank you. Is there a source that delineates the relationship between ex cathedra pronoucements and documents like the Catechism of the Catholic Church (I don't know what class of documents this is)? My first reaction would be that the Catechism would have to be interpreted in light of the ex cathedra statement and not the other way around.[/quote]

I wouldn't call the condemnation of the statement "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" an infallible teaching. It is certainly an exercise of the Pope's authentic Magisterium, though. (N.B., this is just my opinion; it might, in fact, be infallible.)

If you want to gain a better understanding of which papal and conciliar pronouncements are infallible, I would suggest that your read this [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM"]this[/url].

Edited June 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

It is important to remember that even in Roman Catholic teaching the CDF itself is not infallible.

[Resurrexi]

That CDF document is an authentic interpretation of John Paul II's Ad tuendam fidem.

Also, if I recall correctly, in the early 20th century there was a debate about whether documents of the Holy Office approved by the Pope [i]in forma specifica[/i] could be infallible.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1894646' date='Jun 17 2009, 04:46 PM']That CDF document is an authentic interpretation of John Paul II's Ad tuendam fidem.

Also, if I recall correctly, in the early 20th century there was a debate about whether documents of the Holy Office approved by the Pope [i]in forma specifica[/i] could be infallible.[/quote]
CDF actions are by definition (even with papal approval) non-infallible according to Roman Catholic teaching. Pastor Bonus (the papal constitution reorganizing the curia) makes it clear that the pope cannot delegate his authority to curial departments.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1894646' date='Jun 17 2009, 04:46 PM']That CDF document is an authentic interpretation of John Paul II's Ad tuendam fidem.

Also, if I recall correctly, in the early 20th century there was a debate about whether documents of the Holy Office approved by the Pope [i]in forma specifica[/i] could be infallible.[/quote]
Ad Tuendam Fidem is simply the canonical revisions. The CDF doctrinal commentary was not approved by the pope at all, but was issued by Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone.

[Resurrexi]

I never said that the commentary was approved[i] in forma specifica[/i]. I am pretty sure, though, that all CDF documents are approved by the Holy Father before they are promulgated.

[jkaands]

During the Middle Ages the state and the Roman Catholic church were essentially one entity. The church declared someone a heretic worthy of death, and the state carried out the sentence. Joan of Arc was declared a heretic by the church and she was burned by the state. In Spain, the Dominican order tried, supervised the torture of (bt the state) , and declared their victims heretics and the state burned them.

You can see a painting of “St Dominic Presiding over the Burning of Heretics” by Pedro Berruguete here:

[url="http://www.wga.hu/framese.html?/html/b/berrugue/pedro/dominic.html"]http://www.wga.hu/framese.html?/html/b/ber...ro/dominic.html[/url]

From the same website:

“Berruguete lived during the last years of the reconquista when those sentenced to be burned at the stake were mostly Moors who had been converted to Christianity but who were suspected of practicing Mohammedanism in secret. Berruguete witnessed the death of these heretics and this painting faithfully illustrates the manner in which the sentences imposed by the Inquisition were enforced in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries: he records the half reprieve granted to penitents, the throttling that preceded burning and even the pointed hats worn by those condemned to do penance. “

The Catholic church will never live this down. To this day one hears the expression, “What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?” Like Germany and the Holocaust, which will haunt them for centuries.

Of course, the church as a new scandal, pedophilia. This one isn’t over yet and it, too, will tarnish the church’s reputation for a long, long time.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1894670' date='Jun 17 2009, 05:07 PM']I never said that the commentary was approved[i] in forma specifica[/i]. I am pretty sure, though, that all CDF documents are approved by the Holy Father before they are promulgated.[/quote]
If a CDF document is approved by the pope it says so at the very end of it, i.e., in one of the concluding paragraphs. The CDF doctrinal commentary was not approved by the pope, but was simply the work of Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone, and since it has no papal approval it merely states the personal opinions of its authors.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1894665' date='Jun 17 2009, 07:02 PM']CDF actions are by definition (even with papal approval) non-infallible according to Roman Catholic teaching. Pastor Bonus (the papal constitution reorganizing the curia) makes it clear that the pope cannot delegate his authority to curial departments.[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm"]This Catholic Encyclopedia article[/url] discusses how theologians in the early 20th Century debated whether [i]Lamentabili Sane[/i], a document of the Holy Office, was infallible. You may be completely correct that it has now been decided that documents of the CDF cannot be infallible, but I would like to see where [i]Pastor Bonus[/i] states that.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1894677' date='Jun 17 2009, 07:10 PM']If a CDF document is approved by the pope it says so at the very end of it, i.e., in one of the concluding paragraphs. The CDF doctrinal commentary was not approved by the pope, but was simply the work of Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone, and since it has no papal approval it merely states the personal opinions of its authors.[/quote]

I would say that, though the document does not have papal approval, it is much more than the personal opinion of Cardinal Ratzinger. After all, the title of the document is "Doctrinal Commentary" which implies that it is authoritative. I would also assume that it was published in the [i]AAS[/i].