Dating With Discernment

[Aloysius]

:knocks:

all you future-nuns decent in here?

sorry lol, I know this place is for all discerners, but I always have the stereotype that it's populated completely by future nuns.

so anyway, I wonder what everyone's opinion is of dating while discerning a vocation... it relates to my life but not really, so I guess I'm also asking about my specific case as accurately as I can describe it to you folks... because well, actually, I am in general in favor of people still dating while they are considering a vocation so long as they are always open/honest with their partners about it... and I know it's probably always a strain on the relationship, but I think it can/should be done when applicable... you know, before entering anything.

but anyway, in my specific case I've been on/off with this girl for about 4 1/2 years now... I'd say you could probably roughly divide that up as 3 years and 8 months ON and 10 months OFF, intermittently. so you gotta know the topic of vocations has been brought up... it's most often always been eclipsed by talk of future marriage because when the religious vocations were brought up, we both talked about how back in high school we'd both gone through 'the question' and decided those were not for us... admittedly I could always tell I had suffered longer through 'the question' longer and more deeply than her... but I always thought she had pretty good reasons and always accepted her desire to discern marriage with me through dating, which at its height of seriousness was sometimes considered between us to be "engagement" and of course at the lowest level of seriousness we did have periods of you know, just being in a relationship without any definitively defined future... but no matter what level of seriousness we were at in our relationship we always fell back to some serious discussion of marriage.

so anyway, recently, she's been thinking more and more about mission work, which she's always wanted to do and stuff, and she's had this plan to go do some type of mission work abroad for a year... her current plans are going to Rome to teach. now, I've certainly never been all too enthusiastic about the plan because it would keep us apart for a year, but I've been accepting of it and willing to work with it... actually I even suggested me going with her but she totally didn't like that idea because she wanted to do it "for herself" or some such thing. anyway, her current line of thinking is that a year isn't enough, that maybe she's called to a religious vocation, or to a single vocation as a missionary (and in general I'm against the idea of "single vocation" except when done for a specific purpose, so as a missionary makes sense I guess)... now I use "missionary" loosely as it appears does all the modern world now, missionary in terms of charity work not necessarily in terms of the traditional "spreading the faith" focus...

so anyway, she said she needed us to be on a break so she had space to think about these things. after a long discussion where I pleaded my case for us staying together with her simply thinking about them and talking with me about them (I told her, it might be a strain and often it's hard for me to talk with you about you having a future without me so I'm not going to be the perfect vocational discernment partner for you, I'm prolly gonna sometimes disagree with the direction you're going)... I broke up with her. you see, this is not the first time SOMETHING has seemed to have gotten in the way of us having a future, and a "break" like this would not be the first time I had put my life on hold waiting for her, pining for her, hoping to win her back, and in the mean time not building any other future for myself since I still believe in our future. so it seems she expects me again to wait her out while she thinks it over... expecting me to still be here if she decides against that path. for the first time in our relationship I actually had to stop my silly little hopeless romanticism where I figured I should be the ever vigilant lover always wanting her to come back to me and decided I had to be fair to myself... and so for the first time in my life I broke up with a girl (instead of them breaking up with me, that is, though one time it actually was mutual)... and I told her I wouldn't be open to getting back together until after she returned from her missionary stuff.

so in terms of THAT situation, as I described in a limited fashion to the best of my ability, what would you think? I guess I'd have to say: I didn't exactly have the option of dating her while she still discerned; the option was basically to be on a "break", ie have myself still unavailable to any other options as in other girls or what not waiting and remaining available for her, while she discerned. so it wouldn't have been dating and discerning at the same time... what say you? did I make the right move from your limited knowledge of the scenarios?

[Maggyie]

I am one of the former "future nun" discerners who has actually discerned that I am called to marriage. Certainly after three or four years, both the man and the woman in a relationship have had time to discern whether this is THE person God is calling them to or not; if there has not been anything concrete(formal engagement or marriage) by then, there probably never will be... I'm referring to people who actively take a "discernment" POV of course. In the world at large where people just date casually and without an eye toward their ultimate vocation, courtship can take a lot longer. Of course if you're younger that can throw road blocks in there too.

Regardless of whether she is called to marriage or religious life or whatever, it appears that you both have at least already discerned that you are not called to marry each other, since you never were comfortable enough to take the next step together. Breaking up with her just made it a formal decision, rather like deciding to enter a convent after visiting places and writing letters... ok not quite. Definitely better than taking a break, which is just a way of putting off the inevitable... she may be one of those poor souls who have been sucked into Perpetual Discernment Land and making a decision is difficult for her, so she prefers to kind of leave things dangling. You can't discern each other forever, though, and I think you made the right choice, which was to MAKE a choice.

[HisChild]

Aloysius,

First, discernment to a vocation isn't just for future nuns. LOL It's for all vocations, even to the married life. It would just seem that the threads here are mainly populated by those discerning religious life. As for myself, I've discerned both vocations, and would like to think I can speak to either of them. I actually dated a few years ago while still discerning religious life. The first gentleman I dated I will be honest, I did not tell him I was discerning religious life. He is/was not Catholic and I didn't think he would understand where I was in my spiritual journey. No matter, we stopped dating pretty quickly after we started as I didn't find him to be a man of good character. The second I dated was Catholic, and I suspect still is. I told him I had been in religious life before, and told him I would not say no to our Lord should He call me to another congregation. It wasn't a lengthy conversation, only that I was still remaining open to God's will. He seemed to understand, but again, our dating was rather brief, as he was also opening his own restaurant at the time and didn't have much time for any sort of relationship. It was at that point that I left it all up to God to send a wonderful man into my life if I were called to married life, and to direct me to a community if I was called to religious life. Pretty simplistic explanation for something much more complex, but I'm sure you get my meaning.

I would have to agree with Maggie in that after 4 years, you really should have a clearer direction of whether this person is for you for life or not. And by you, I mean both parties.

Perhaps our Lord wasn't calling you to be with this woman and it just took you both that long to realize it. Maybe she's called to religious life... or maybe you are and you've been fighting it all this time. Or, it could very well be that the right woman has been waiting in the wings this entire time, one who you've not truly seen because you've been so busy with this on again, off again relationship with your former amour.

One thing seems to be pretty clear, based on your post. You two are not destined to be together right now, if at all. And I think by your finally having the courage to post about it, you are finally seeing it as well. I look at your letter as revelation, in the same way that going to a spiritual director or counselor would reveal. Neither SD or counselor tells you what to do, but listens to you as you figure out the path that's right for you.

I will pray that she doesn't toss anchor in what Maggie termed Perpetual Discernment Land and I will pray for you that are able to see your decision more clearly.

Hope it helped, even if just a little.

God bless,

HisChild

[tinytherese]

The amount of time that you have discerned marriage with her is long enough to tell if the two of you were to be together. I'd recommend receiving spiritual direction as well and if you think that you are called to marriage then I recommend reading "Christian Courtship in an Over-Sexed World: A Guide for Catholics."

[Thomist-in-Training]

Don't pressure her. Let her free, even if it annoys you that you seem to be expected not to date. Due to really bad advice, in a flush of vocational enthusiasm (as it were) I did the "dating and discerning" thing which turned quickyl into just dating and it took me a long time to get back to discerning, which is where I really needed to've been.

I've known two pairs of friends who were in a bit of a similar situation to what you describe. Both of the guys have just entered seminary. I know for one of them especially it just meant a LOT of heartache I think, but maybe they couldn't've stopped sooner. But if you don't let her really investigate it, it will be worse.

Either she'll find that she needs to be a religious, or she'll come back... or something else will happen that's good, God knows and I don't what. I know it's not easy though and that's why people (good Catholic young people) hem and haw over it like they do. Actually, I also know a guy who was probably 28 or 30 and entered the seminary, said he'd been thinking aboout it for a long time--after a year he came back home. I think he's either engaged or sort of engaged now. But he gave it a fair chance and I'd bet he has a lot more peace now than he did.

[berenike]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='12 September 2009 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1252735530' post='1965209']
:knocks:

all you future-nuns decent in here?

sorry lol, I know this place is for all discerners, but I always have the stereotype that it's populated completely by future nuns.

so anyway, I wonder what everyone's opinion is of dating while discerning a vocation... [/quote]

Don't do it. Dating, for Catholics, should be the same thing as courting. Have friends of the opposite sex, hang out, talk, whatever, but don't date unless you're looking to marry.

And everyone should be reading Auntie Seraphic.

[url="http://seraphicgoestoscotland.blogspot.com/2009/09/auntie-seraphic-discerner-magnet.html"]Auntie Seraphic and "Discerner Magnet"[/url].

Drat, she's taken most of her stuff down - it's going in the book. Well, buy the book when it comes out, and in the meantime don't date unless you're looking to marry. I mean, ask yourself, what is dating *for*?

[Aloysius]

good stuff...

so, i wonder if you think it possible that one could discern their vocation to be marriage to a specific someone, but that someone does not correctly discern their vocation to be with them... I think that's what's going to be hardest for me, because I have a deep and long prayerfully considered belief in our vocation to marriage that it seems she either no longer has or never had... and that doesn't go away, even in my prayer life...

now, I have always said that vocations are not the same as destinies and I think people often treat them too much like that... but vocations are much more complex things and God creates many different possibilities and His call, discerned through circumstances of life and how things work out as well as through prayer, is something that meshes into an organic development of who one is. so I don't see it as an all-encompassing destiny that's been established for a person to be married to X or to enter convent Y, but a whole bunch of possibilities God has established, made subject to free will and circumstance, and then called people through providence. so like, I think it quite likely He created this vocation for the two of us... but just as if the free will of some raving lunatic could've killed one of us and altered those plans, some other circumstance could arise and make a different vocation be required.

I see her as someone God made able to do either vocation... and He may be calling her in different ways to each vocation, and it is up to the circumstances of life to really get at what is providentially the vocation she should follow. but, I dunno, it doesn't seem to me that there's a "wrong choice" there, because I don't see it in terms of destiny with only one possibility for each person coming from God...

anyway, I think I've rambled enough here for now. yinz's thoughts on destiny/vocation?

[HisChild]

I'm on my way to work but I wanted to reply to your (Aloysius') post. I DO believe in destiny, and like you, believe it's different than vocation. I do believe that our Lord not only has a plan for our vocation, that He not only calls us to a state in life but also to a particular place/person, ie: specific monastery within an Order, or specific congregation or marriage to a particular person. However, I do not believe our vocation will fall apart if we somehow think He wills us to go to monastery A and in our discernment, we think we're called to monastery B... or we wind up believing He's called us to marriage instead! And it took me a long time to realize this but if we do choose a community and it somehow doesn't work out, it's not because we failed to do God's will. He very well could have had us enter a particular community to learn something there before we enter the place where we're meant to be. Doesn't make it any less painful... at least that's how I now view my own vocation. The skinny? God works for good for those who love Him. Period. I believe that's the disease affecting perpetual discerners... afraid of making a choice for fear it not be God's perfect will, and not knowing how to 'discern' for once and for all if it IS His will. What many don't realize is not making a choice IS a choice.

Thomas Merton once wrote a prayer. I've bolded my own emphasis:

MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I [b]think I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so[/b]. But I believe that the [b]desire to please you does in fact please you[/b]. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore I will trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

I believe that if we strive to do His will, it will please Him because He will see the fervent attempts and the living for Him in whatever state in live we choose, even if they wind up not being 'His will'. He makes straight with crooked lines, yes? We will do great things wherever we are, not because of us, but because of Him who strengthens and guides us.


Edited for grammar.

Edited September 14, 2009 by HisChild

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='berenike' date='14 September 2009 - 04:22 AM' timestamp='1252920122' post='1966149']
Don't do it. Dating, for Catholics, should be the same thing as courting. Have friends of the opposite sex, hang out, talk, whatever, but don't date unless you're looking to marry.

And everyone should be reading Auntie Seraphic.

[url="http://seraphicgoestoscotland.blogspot.com/2009/09/auntie-seraphic-discerner-magnet.html"]Auntie Seraphic and "Discerner Magnet"[/url].

Drat, she's taken most of her stuff down - it's going in the book. Well, buy the book when it comes out, and in the meantime don't date unless you're looking to marry. I mean, ask yourself, what is dating *for*?
[/quote]
I don't post in VS very often, but I read this thread, and this post, and felt inclined to comment.
Maybe I'm missing something fundamental, but I'm not sure I respect the tone of this article by "Auntie Seraphic". It seems too full of self righteous indignation, and is very harshly critical of people going through times of intense confusion in their own lives. Most of her points are valid, I think, but I have serious doubts about the article as a whole.

[Thomist-in-Training]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='14 September 2009 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1252930360' post='1966168']
good stuff...

so, i wonder if you think it possible that one could discern their vocation to be marriage to a specific someone, but that someone does not correctly discern their vocation to be with them... I think that's what's going to be hardest for me, because I have a deep and long prayerfully considered belief in our vocation to marriage that it seems she either no longer has or never had... and that doesn't go away, even in my prayer life...

now, I have always said that vocations are not the same as destinies and I think people often treat them too much like that... but vocations are much more complex things and God creates many different possibilities and His call, discerned through circumstances of life and how things work out as well as through prayer, is something that meshes into an organic development of who one is. so I don't see it as an all-encompassing destiny that's been established for a person to be married to X or to enter convent Y, but a whole bunch of possibilities God has established, made subject to free will and circumstance, and then called people through providence. so like, I think it quite likely He created this vocation for the two of us... but just as if the free will of some raving lunatic could've killed one of us and altered those plans, some other circumstance could arise and make a different vocation be required.

I see her as someone God made able to do either vocation... and He may be calling her in different ways to each vocation, and it is up to the circumstances of life to really get at what is providentially the vocation she should follow. but, I dunno, it doesn't seem to me that there's a "wrong choice" there, because I don't see it in terms of destiny with only one possibility for each person coming from God...

anyway, I think I've rambled enough here for now. yinz's thoughts on destiny/vocation?
[/quote]

I read somewhere that a married woman who realizes she really did at one point have a call to be a nun, shouldn't feel like now her life is ruined. Her vocation now is to take care of her family.

I'm reading the Great Italian Novel, [i]I Promessi Sposi[/i] (The Betrothed) by Alessandro Manzoni, and there's this girl whose parents, wanting to keep their whole fortune for the eldest son, manhandle all their other children into religion. (Set in 1620.) The girl much against her own wishes becomes a nun and makes vows. The author takes a paragraph off to discourse on how she could have made the best of it:

[quote]One of the strangest faculties of the Chrstiian religion, and one of the hardest to understand, is her power of giving direction and consolation to everyone who has recourse to her, in no matter what circumstances, at no matter what time. If there is a remedy for wath is past, she prescribes it, and gives us the vision and the strength to carry it out, whatever the cost. If there is no remedy, she shows us how to make a literal reality of the proverbial expression 'to make a virtue of necessity.' She teaches us to continue wisely in the course we entered upon out of frivolity. She chstens our heart to eaccept gladly that which is imposed on us by tyranny, she gives a reckless but irrevocable choice all the sanctity, all the wisdom, all the--let us say it--all the joyful happiness of a true vocation. She is like a great road, which a man may find after wandering in the most tangled labyrinth, amid the most dangerous precipices, and once he has taken one stride along it, he can walk on safely and gladly, and be sure of a happy end to his journey.[/quote]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='15 September 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1253040225' post='1966951']
I read somewhere that a married woman who realizes she really did at one point have a call to be a nun, shouldn't feel like now her life is ruined. Her vocation now is to take care of her family.

I'm reading the Great Italian Novel, [i]I Promessi Sposi[/i] (The Betrothed) by Alessandro Manzoni, and there's this girl whose parents, wanting to keep their whole fortune for the eldest son, manhandle all their other children into religion. (Set in 1620.) The girl much against her own wishes becomes a nun and makes vows. The author takes a paragraph off to discourse on how she could have made the best of it:
[/quote]

The story of how "the little bride" was half-persuaded, half-forced into religious life is one of the most interesting parts of that wonderful book!!

Personally I do not feel it is possible (or I should say, likely) that anyone can "miss" their vocation by marrying or vice versa. God's call is not based on how we feel about a particular vocation but corresponds to our current duties and responsibilities; I know moms who have felt called to the religious life, and only over time realized that their true call was to focus on their families since that was the obligation they had undertaken.

[morostheos]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='14 September 2009 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1252930360' post='1966168']
good stuff...

so, i wonder if you think it possible that one could discern their vocation to be marriage to a specific someone, but that someone does not correctly discern their vocation to be with them... I think that's what's going to be hardest for me, because I have a deep and long prayerfully considered belief in our vocation to marriage that it seems she either no longer has or never had... and that doesn't go away, even in my prayer life...

....
yinz's thoughts on destiny/vocation?
[/quote]

Regarding that specific question, I would say no, because full discernment involves both parties. Those who are discerning a vocation to religious life are discerning while the community is also discerning if they are a good match. If both don't agree, no vocation. I think it's the same for romantic relationships. It doesn't matter how strongly you feel called to marry someone, if they don't feel the same way, it must not be your vocation. (At least for now.) I've definitely been in that situation multiple times before, thinking everything pointed to a relationship as "the one" but it not being reciprocated. It can be really hard, but God's will for our lives takes into account the choices those around us make (that whole omnipotence thing - he knows what everyone chooses in the end).

[berenike]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 September 2009 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1252953321' post='1966335']
I don't post in VS very often, but I read this thread, and this post, and felt inclined to comment.
Maybe I'm missing something fundamental, but I'm not sure I respect the tone of this article by "Auntie Seraphic". It seems too full of self righteous indignation, and is very harshly critical of people going through times of intense confusion in their own lives. Most of her points are valid, I think, but I have serious doubts about the article as a whole.
[/quote]

Auntie Seraphic "harshly critical"? !

Cheer up.

Speaking from long experience (I'm very old) one of the chief temptations of the Pious Catholic Youngish Person is Discernment Drama. We almost all take ourselves too seriously. (I'm not saying one shouldn't take discernment seriously, of course.)

Edited September 21, 2009 by berenike

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 September 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1252953321' post='1966335'] Most of her points are valid, I think, but I have serious doubts about the article as a whole.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
agreed. maybe i just don't get her humor, though and if she's reading this - we don't let anyone comment in Vocation Station until you have 10 posts because we've had posters in the past who have spammed Vocation Station with anti-Catholic links and generally just not been cool.

[perfectunion33]

Love God, pray always, attend daily Mass if possible, keep His commandments, seek to do His Will, trust in Him, and all else will fall into place.