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BarbaraTherese
[quote]Quoting osapientia - "It is common practice to say "priests, religious and laity"....."[quote]religious" is a "distinction" within the laity not apart from it[/quote]"[/quote]

Not generally understood, I don't think

[quote]Quoting Nunsense " Poverty? For a Carmelite, this can even mean asking permission for toilet paper! "[/quote]

I had to smile at the above, Nunsense - and do forgive me...............sometimes I have been unable to even afford a roll of toilet paper and no one to ask could I have one please (although a very kind person gave me one last week I think it was), sometimes not enough food available to keep going for the week. (And I am not alone in this area. At this point (in the process of a government housing mandatory shift) I have lived in an extremely poor area beset by every kind of social problem imaginable for 30 years. And my income is regarded as below poverty. But then I smile and tell The Lord "Well, poverty I vowed and poverty I meant". Not so much what one is about as how and why (perspective) one is about what one is about. I never experienced that sort of poverty in monastic life (I never lived so well!)- but then as I said, if the sacrifices are not sufficient in the duties of one's particular state of themselves, then The Lord will send sufficient to make a great saint of one - and a matter for joy and smiling........Blessings and my regards..........Barb

. Edited by BarbaraTherese

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sistersintigo
This thread is over six months old.
However, this link seems a recent one.
The Paterson, New Jersey Roman Catholic Diocese contains both fr. Eugene Romano's Hermits of Bethlehem, and a Carmel of women hermits; both have addresses in Chester. The attached link provides photographs from the women's Carmel in Chester.

http://www.patersondiocese.org/moreinfo.cfm?Web_ID=2944

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IgnatiusofLoyola
[quote name='Saint Therese' date='09 April 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1270863237' post='2090275']
Why did that post get TWO negative votes??[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Makes no sense to me. Often, I use my one positive vote a day to "undo" a negative vote that seems unwarranted.

Unfortunately, I've used up my positive vote for the day. :-<

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Tridenteen
JMJ
I fixed the negative vote, by giving a positive. And when is that amish website getting back on me with the bonnet I ordered for my project? stinking anabaptists.[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]

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cmaD2006
[quote name='sistersintigo' date='09 April 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1270832060' post='2089993']
This thread is over six months old.
However, this link seems a recent one.
The Paterson, New Jersey Roman Catholic Diocese contains both fr. Eugene Romano's Hermits of Bethlehem, and a Carmel of women hermits; both have addresses in Chester. The attached link provides photographs from the women's Carmel in Chester.

http://www.patersondiocese.org/moreinfo.cfm?Web_ID=2944
[/quote]

sistersintigo:

please, please, please, please ... pretty please, with sugar on top ... create a new thread. I was the one that created the original thread, and I think it would have been more appropriate to open a new one.

please?

There are times that its quite appropriate to post to the old thread -- Br. Bruno is the perfect example ... he was updating us on what was going on and that thread had to do with him.

But in this case it would have been better in my opinion to create a new thread, and maybe even start a new discussion on hermits.

A sincere thanks for understanding,

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SRLAUREL
[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='18 September 2009 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1253324671' post='1968939']
Dear Friends:


I hate to start a tempest in a teapot but the book from the diocese of Lacrosse is not the only way to go about being a hermit. I have been one for over six years now an before doing so contacted the former Abbot of New Mellaray Abbot who is now a hermit. He is also a Canon Lawyer. He pointed out to me that if you carefully read canon 603 there are two parts allowing for different expression. Being a diLcesan hermit is only one of those expressions.

I am well aware of how the lacrosse book came into being and it was mainly the work of one hermit and the Vicaress of her diocese with some added information from some of the practices in France. The Vicaress herself is an active religious with no first hand experience of being a hermit prior to writing this. So as good as it may be for some, it is not Gospel. Some like myself prefer to go the religious route and follow a particular charism. We were not nor did we have to be diocesan hermits yet our life and our vows are no less valid.

Also Sister Laurels defintion of laura is deeply flawed. A good example of this are the carthusians, early Carmelites and Camaldolese of Monte Corona who are a direct split off from the OSB Camaldolese and started as a Camaldolese laura with the same spirit and rule reformed for a stricter observance of the Camaldoli rule. They did away with the cenobial common house aspects so when they enter the community go straight into the hermitage not as individual hermits but as a laura community with strict enclosure. They can be found here in the United States in Ohio. Also sister's saying that you have to be separate in spirituality to be a laura is also false. I have never argued it openly with her because I felt it would only upset the group and bring more heat than light.

But I hate to see people misled by a few who refer to others as fake or at least "less than hermits." Because of the words and actions of a few who even though they feel themselves experts but in reality are more biased than anything, I have been very dimayed by some diocesan hermits who somehow see themselves in a hierarchical manner as the "real hermits" with a higher calling than others. This to me is simply pride and presumption.

The reason the Lacrosse book is so popular is easy. Most Bishops do not know where to begin and secondly just handing someone this book is the path of least resistance. Do your homework, be humble but stand your ground. pray pray pray and research after doing all of that, then obey your superiors and all will be well. Do not be taken in by the words of a few vocal minority. The first hermits were almost entirely laymen and became what we today revere as our Desert Fathers.

Sorry if I get hot about this but I have had women write me and tell me they are afraid to write on certain other lists for fear of being pounced upon by a vocal few. However there are many silent diocesan hermits who live there life humbly alone seeking the face of God and praying for the needs of all.

Laughing sorry about this rant i just hope someone will benefit by it in knowing there is more than one road open to them.


Indwelling Trinity :topsy:
[/quote]

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SRLAUREL
[quote name='Gemma' date='18 September 2009 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1253295086' post='1968663']
Post-nomial initials: "erem. dio." is what's used. If a hermit has a non-profit organization, they can use the initials for that. One Carmelite uses "OCDH".

Blessings,
Gemma
[/quote]


A note on post-nomial initials: Whatever post-nomial initials are used by individual hermits, are used with the permission of the diocesan hermit's Bishop. In 2008, ABp Vigneron (then my own Bishop) okayed my own use of Erem Dio (eremita dioecesanus or diocesan hermit) to indicate standing under Canon 603. Since that date a number of other diocesan hermits in several countries have, with their own Bishop's permission, adopted these same initials. Despite the fact that we each have different spiritualities (Camaldolese, Carmelite, Franciscan, etc) we recognize that it is our standing as diocesan which distinguishes us from religious hermits and from lay hermits. It is the fact that we are diocesan with a unique relationship to the diocese that defines our own unique charism. No one professed under C 603 is currently required to use these initials, but it is the case that they are meant to be universal and adoptable by any Canon 603 hermit. Over time they may become the prevalent or even accepted universal (Catholic) designation for diocesan hermits, but they are not this at this point in time.

As far as post-nomial initials and non-profit status, these are two separate issues. Post-nomial initials are an ecclesial convention, not a civil one and for this reason they should be okayed by one's Bishop. They indicate a public vocation, and a public identity in the church whether as part of a congrgegation or as a diocesan hermit. For this reason, to simply adopt initials on one's own, particularly if one has private vows, sends a misleading message. In any case, Erem Dio (or Er Dio) indicates standing as a diocesan hermit (standing under Canon Law) whether or not one has sought non-profit status under civil law.

Best regards,
Sister Laurel, Erem Dio
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

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SRLAUREL
[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='18 September 2009 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1253324671' post='1968939']
Dear Friends:


I hate to start a tempest in a teapot but the book from the diocese of Lacrosse is not the only way to go about being a hermit. I have been one for over six years now an before doing so contacted the former Abbot of New Mellaray Abbot who is now a hermit. He is also a Canon Lawyer. He pointed out to me that if you carefully read canon 603 there are two parts allowing for different expression. Being a diLcesan hermit is only one of those expressions.

I am well aware of how the lacrosse book came into being and it was mainly the work of one hermit and the Vicaress of her diocese with some added information from some of the practices in France. The Vicaress herself is an active religious with no first hand experience of being a hermit prior to writing this. So as good as it may be for some, it is not Gospel. Some like myself prefer to go the religious route and follow a particular charism. We were not nor did we have to be diocesan hermits yet our life and our vows are no less valid.

Also Sister Laurels defintion of laura is deeply flawed. A good example of this are the carthusians, early Carmelites and Camaldolese of Monte Corona who are a direct split off from the OSB Camaldolese and started as a Camaldolese laura with the same spirit and rule reformed for a stricter observance of the Camaldoli rule. They did away with the cenobial common house aspects so when they enter the community go straight into the hermitage not as individual hermits but as a laura community with strict enclosure. They can be found here in the United States in Ohio. Also sister's saying that you have to be separate in spirituality to be a laura is also false. I have never argued it openly with her because I felt it would only upset the group and bring more heat than light.

But I hate to see people misled by a few who refer to others as fake or at least "less than hermits." Because of the words and actions of a few who even though they feel themselves experts but in reality are more biased than anything, I have been very dimayed by some diocesan hermits who somehow see themselves in a hierarchical manner as the "real hermits" with a higher calling than others. This to me is simply pride and presumption.

The reason the Lacrosse book is so popular is easy. Most Bishops do not know where to begin and secondly just handing someone this book is the path of least resistance. Do your homework, be humble but stand your ground. pray pray pray and research after doing all of that, then obey your superiors and all will be well. Do not be taken in by the words of a few vocal minority. The first hermits were almost entirely laymen and became what we today revere as our Desert Fathers.

Sorry if I get hot about this but I have had women write me and tell me they are afraid to write on certain other lists for fear of being pounced upon by a vocal few. However there are many silent diocesan hermits who live there life humbly alone seeking the face of God and praying for the needs of all.

Laughing sorry about this rant i just hope someone will benefit by it in knowing there is more than one road open to them.


Indwelling Trinity :topsy:
[/quote]

It would have been helpful to me, Emmanuel, if you had clarified how my definition of Laura is flawed, or even had cited how it is I define a Laura, but since you did not, let me clarify what I have written about Lauras for the participants of this discussion. Perhaps then you can point out where you disagree.

First the essential nature of a Laura is of a group of hermits who come together for mutual support and worship. This is true no matter what form of Laura is being discussed and what the physical arrangements for the group (Carthusian cloister or Camaldolese hermitages, for instance). Next, there are basically two kinds of Lauras, those which as such constitute a religious community in the canonical sense or represent an expression of a congregation (Camaldolese, Carthusian, Hermits of Bethlehem, etc), and those which do not (for instance, a Laura of diocesan hermits). In the latter case, canonists are clear that such a Laura does NOT constitute a religious community. (Cf Jean Beyer in his commentary on Canon 603) The individual hermits live their own Rules of Life though there may be modifications to allow for communal liturgy, etc. The reason canonists are clear about this is because Canon 603 is meant to be used to govern solitary eremitical life, not religious eremitical life. For that reason some dioceses have required diocesan hermits to add to their profession litugy or vow formula the specific idea that this is response to the grace of vocation as a solitary hermit --- which is not a redundant phrase, despite how it sounds initially.

Regarding the LaCrosse guidebook, it is precisely what it calls itself, a guidebook. My own diocese referred to it and adopted some of its practices while ignoring or modifying others. It is the result of lived experience, and that experience has been enlarged by the experience of other dioceses with Canon 603 hermits at this point. I don't know any place which simply adopts the guidebook in toto (or justhands it to a prospective diocesan hermit), but there is no doubt it enshrines real wisdom in much of what it includes, especially on motives for the life, formation requirements, and the like. Canon 603 itself is a fine mix of the universal and the personal in its combination of the essential elements of any eremitical life (Canon 603.1) and the individual Rule (C603.2) which is written by the hermit as an expression of her own experience and wisdom.

Finally, I am unaware of any diocesan hermits who consider their vocations to be "real" eremitical vocations which are opposed to "lesser vocations" or less true eremitical vocations. Lay, diocesan, and religious hermits are all hermits with significant vocations, but they differ from one another in their respective charisms, missions, rights, and responsibilities. It is, I think, always important to remember that admission to the consecrated state is not a hierarchical matter and is not to be used in a hierarchical sense. When one says lay vs consecrated states of life this is emphatically NOT a hierarchical matter and not a hierarchical distinction; it is a matter of states of life and relationship to baptismal consecration. In the lay state the rights and responsibilities possessed by a person flow directly from baptism. In the consecrated state, despite building on baptismal consecration, the rights and responsibilities do not flow directly or necessarily from baptism, but instead from a new consecration. (Thus, for instance, laity are called to poverty, chastity and obedience in a general and significant sense by virtue of their baptism, but not to the renunciation of property, consecrated celibacy, or submission by vow to a legitimate superior --- part of the responsibilities which flow directly from admission to the (vowed)consecrated state (consecrated Virgins, who do not have vows, are excepted here).) One major source of confusion comes from the fact that lay vs clerical IS a hierarchical distinction used in the church, and documents of Vatican II. However Canon Law is clear (C 588) "the state of consecrated life [a non hierarchical term] by its very nature is neither clerical nor lay [hierarchical terms]." I can confidently say that in anything I have written about admission to the consecrated state or to discussion of lay hermits vs consecrated (diocesan) hermits I have been careful to emphasize the significance of both vocations. As I have pointed out repeatedly, neither is better than the other, but they definitely differ in significant ways as well.

All good wishes.

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aalpha1989
I have a question to the hermits who have posted. My only direct experience with hermits was with one Carmelite hermit, but it seems confusing to me that hermits would use the internet and post on a forum. I'm curious how a hermit such as yourselves would differ from a hermit from a religious community- how can one communicate regularly with people on the internet and still be a hermit? I'm sorry if this post seems offensive, I don't mean it to be... I'm genuinely confused. Thank you for your responses and patience with me!

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SRLAUREL
[quote name='aalpha1989' date='11 April 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1271018753' post='2091087']
I have a question to the hermits who have posted. My only direct experience with hermits was with one Carmelite hermit, but it seems confusing to me that hermits would use the internet and post on a forum. I'm curious how a hermit such as yourselves would differ from a hermit from a religious community- how can one communicate regularly with people on the internet and still be a hermit? I'm sorry if this post seems offensive, I don't mean it to be... I'm genuinely confused. Thank you for your responses and patience with me!
[/quote]


No offense taken. Most hermits I know have internet access and contribute to various forums -- though their activity tends to be fairly sparing, especially compared to regular posters. (I tend to post when someone emails me about posts dealing with eremitical life, for instance; I don't tend to participate in this forum in a general sense.) Correspondence (sometimes extensive correspondence) is generally accepted as appropriate to hermits, but the bottom line answer involves two facts: 1) hermits are, for the most part, not recluses and 2) the degree of communication with others is something diocesan hermits work out with their directors, delegates, and Bishops. It is included in their Rule of Life in a general sense and may vary over time for any number of reasons.

It is important to remember that publicly professed hermits have public vocations. This is not a matter of notoriety, but it does make them publicly responsible for their vocations, through, and sometimes despite the hiddenness that characterizes their lives. Similarly, their vocations are ecclesial and rooted in koinonia. Eremitical solitude, in particular, is not the same as isolation, but involves communion with others (God first of all, but also all he cherishes) --- usually in paradoxical or very unusual ways, but sometimes, just as directly as one expects of anyone else. For instance, Hermits offer hospitality, do limited ministry besides their contemplative lives of prayer and penance, and worship with others some of the time. They also do what they must to support themselves, run errands, etc.

Briefly, eremitical solitude has two interrelated components, an inner solitude (which results from communion with God and dependence upon Him alone) and physical solitude (which is a material drawing apart from others in silence, prayer and penance). These support and lead to one another, but there are definitely times when diocesan hermits must interact with others, both in charity and of necessity. The key tends to be not allowing this to interrupt inner solitude, and of course, limiting it in accord with one's Rule of Life.

I hope this helps. One thing does tend to be true about this diverse vocation: it rarely comports with the stereotypes or common images of hermits.

All my best.
Sister Laurel, Erem Dio
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

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cmaD2006
[quote name='SRLAUREL' date='11 April 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1271015107' post='2091045']
It would have been helpful to me, [b]Indwelling Trinity[/b], if you had clarified how my definition of Laura is flawed, or even had cited how it is I define a Laura, but since you did not, let me clarify what I have written about Lauras for the participants of this discussion. Perhaps then you can point out where you disagree.
[/quote]

Sr. Laurel -- I think it was mentioned before that on the forum it is more appropriate to refer to the username. (Hence the bolded section above). I don't remember Indwelling Trinity ever using a name on the forum, at least recently.

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HisChild
[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='11 April 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1271044500' post='2091375']
Sr. Laurel -- I think it was mentioned before that on the forum it is more appropriate to refer to the username. (Hence the bolded section above). I don't remember Indwelling Trinity ever using a name on the forum, at least recently.
[/quote]


I also find it rather condescending SISTER Laurel, that you chose to not only use Indwelling Trinity's religious name, but didn't see fit to call her Sister. She is a professed religious hermit, affiliated with a community of Carmelite Hermits and has the full privilege of being called a Sister, just as you do, regardless of your personal opinion about her way of life, her vocation.

I've seen you do this on other forums/lists and it's highly disrespectful, especially when you ask to be addressed as Sister yourself. I've noticed you do call some religious and/or hermits by their proper names (ie: using 'Sister' or 'Father/Brother' so I know it's not a universal sign of disrespect, just selective). It would be one thing if you asked us to call you Laurel... It's also one of the reasons I've left another list that you're on, because of your arrogance and complete lack of charity to others. When you treat others this way, it doesn't make that other person look bad, it actually backfires.

Whatever personal 'beef' you have with her, it really would be much more appropriate to remove it, [b]once and for all[/b], from the public eye. I think this would be the most appropriate action, and the most charitable to those who have to read your posts.

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Grateful
On 9/18/2009 at 1:28 PM, Gemma said:

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='18 September 2009 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1253250600' post='1968484']
Hi Phamily:

So ... can someone define what is a hermit? Do they primarily stick to themselves? What do they do in order to live (do they hold jobs, or do some type of craft)?

I'm just trying to get a better sense of how the vocation is lived out. I have read a bit about hermits but I never got a clear concept of them.

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

I am working on a website that will expand the eremitical information I have on the present Cloister Outreach site, as information about the vocation keeps bubbling to the surface, so to say.

First and foremost, the CCC mentions hermit as one of the vocations available to discerners. I consider myself a lay hermit, and the consecrates really get up in arms about my saying that, but I'm not the only one (lay hermit) and there are more layfolk discerning this as a vocation-within-a-vocation. Hence the reason for the Lay Cloisterites, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Secondly, Canon 603 specifically mentions hermits, virgins, widows and widowers. There is a rite for Consecrated Virgin which was reinstated after centuries (decades?) of suppression, as was the Order of Hermits. There is no specific rite for the consecration of widows & widowers, and such would have to be through a charism. I have also received many inquiries from virgin males wanting the same consecration, but according to a canonist, a charism would have to be developed to offer such a route.

Each hermit is their own charism, unless its a situation like our Cloisterite Hermits. Each eremitical candidate writes their own Plan of Life, designs a habit, lives the plan of life for a year, and spends one day totally inside with their habit, not being seen through windows, doors, or webcam. The purpose of this one day a week inside is to finalize the habit, because once the bishop signs off on the plan of life, it's "carved in stone." Orans (right moniiker?) here on PM is a hermit in temporary vows, and they can likely provide more details as to what they did. I know Sr. Laurel, erem. dio., did something other than what I described.

Please note: the method of discernment I have described above is what we were told by our hermit-canonist, as this is what her SD told her to do. Other diocesan hermit candidates may be told differently by their spiritual directors, and their SD is the one to follow, not me.

Typically, a laura would be a group of diocesan hermits living together on the same acreage. They would have their own plans of life, and the place would be filled with different habits. In such a situation, the group would have to agree to commonalities, like Mass time. Other lauras are emerging which have a particular spirituality. There are two Carmelite lauras that I know of--one for men (TX), the other for women. Then there's the Hermit Sisters of Mary in Idaho, and the Hermits of Bethlehem in PA. Nazareth Hermitage is in MO, but I'm not sure as to their spirituality.

Remunerative work is whatever fits the hermit's needs. Our hermit-canonist works for the diocese in a paid position, but does her work mostly by internet (I think). She did travel an hour north of her convent to meet with me regarding the Cloisterites, so I know she does travel. She also went to the Eucharistic Congress and on retreat.

Speaking of retreat, that and vacation are to be written into the Plan of Life.

Alas, I digress. Remunerative work, like I said, is whatever fits the hermit's needs. If they have to work for four hours a day at Staples to make ends meet, then they will. (A bit of a stretch there, but I think you get my drift).

Internet--that's based on the hermit's needs, also. The Hermit Sisters of Mary don't respond to prayer requests sent through email. I think the mere clicking of the keys is disruptive to their profound silence. One hermitess emailed me regarding a cloister website she saw on our main site, and asked if she could contact the nuns to see if she could produce something similar. She was hoping that a website would help her make a living by selling her crafts.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

Gemma,  Your post was truly enlightening, illuminating, and informative.  Grateful for your dedication to keep us "hermits at heart" in your mind, heart, and intellect.  Would also wish to remind me of the "Laura" website you're thinking in creating for connectivity and communication.  Additionally found  St. Bruno's Fellowship of Lay Contemplatives which can be accessed through Google.  Discerning vocation by the Grace of the Holy Spirit and the Communion of Angels and Saints.

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