Lost: The Final Season-- Discussion And ***spoilers***

[ardillacid]

I don't see how Jacob's side could be 'good'. So far, they are the most deceitful, treacherous, backstabbing group.

[hope4thenew]

last nites ep was the best so far, i thought so anyway...

and i'm beginning 2 like jungle claire?

and what's up with kimmy and jin?

spooky

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Slappo' date='03 March 2010 - 02:58 AM' timestamp='1267599511' post='2065826']
I just want to say that I really wish I could be posting in this thread and reading all the posts... but I have yet to see season 5 and therefore am waiting to see season 6 too....

I watched season 1-4 last fall and am addicted.

I'm going to wait to watch 5-6 with my soon to be wife after I get her hooked on seasons 1-4 .

I had to skip all the posts to even be able to post this...
[/quote]

You can do it, Slappo!!!

One of my good friends had 1-5 on DVD, so I watched all of them last fall/winter, too, just to get caught up.

You can also watch Season 5 online for free at [url="http://abc.go.com/watch"]ABC's website[/url].

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='03 March 2010 - 03:39 AM' timestamp='1267601946' post='2065849']
I don't see how Jacob's side could be 'good'. So far, they are the most deceitful, treacherous, backstabbing group.
[/quote]

I'm really hoping Jacob's side is "evil", mostly because one of my good friends is without-a-doubt-convinced that he's "good". And well, I just want her to be wrong , plus I like the whole irony of light = evil, and dark = good.

Maybe that puts me on Smokey's team.



Really, I just want some answers. *whines*

[Brother Adam]

How is running around an island as a black pillar of smoke slaughtering people good? The children are also all with John Locke as well, which is deeply concerning. We are running out of time though to answer like 200 unresolved questions which could make this the best show on tv or the worst.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='03 March 2010 - 02:39 AM' timestamp='1267601946' post='2065849']
I don't see how Jacob's side could be 'good'. So far, they are the most deceitful, treacherous, backstabbing group.
[/quote]

Personally, I think Smoke Monster has been manipulating the Others every time around.

[quote]Ben: wake up Charles
Widmore: I wondered when you were gonna show up, I see you've been getting more sun.
Ben: Iraq is lovely this time of year. When did you start sleeping with a bottle of scotch by the bed.
Widmore: When the nightmares started. [b]Have you come here to kill me Benjamin[/b].
Ben: [b]We both know I can't do that[/b].
Widmore: Then why are you here?
Ben: I'm here Charles, because you murdered my daughter.
Widmore: Don't stand there and come at me with those terrible lies of yours and lay the blame of the death of that poor girl on me. We both know very well I didn't murder her at all. You did.
Ben: No thats not true.
Widmore. No Benjamin, its not. You creep into my bedroom in the dead of night and have the audacity to say that you're the victim? [b]I know who you are boy, what you are[/b]. I know that everything you have, you took from me. So once again I ask you, Why are you here?
Ben: I'm here Charles, to tell you that I'm going to kill your daughter. Penelope is it? And once shes gone, once shes dead, then you'll understand how I feel, and wish you hadn't changed the rules.
Widmore: You'll never find her. [b]That island's mine, always was, and it will be again[/b]
Ben: But you'll never find it.
Widmore: Then I suppose the hunt is on for both of us.[/quote]

Compare this to the conversation between Jacob and Man in Black

[quote]MIB: Morning
Jacob: Morning
MIB: mind if join you?
Jacob: Please, want some fish?
MIB: Thank you (shakes head), I just ate.
Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship?
MIB: How'd they find the island?
Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here...
MIB: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
Jacob: You are wrong.
MIB: Am I? They come, fight, destroy, and corrupt. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once. Everything that happens before that, is just progress.
MIB: [b]You have any idea how badly I want to kill you[/b]?
Jacob: Yes.
MIB: One of these days, sooner or later, [b]I'll find a loophole my friend[/b].
Jacob: Well when you do, I'll be right here.
MIB: Always nice talking to you Jacob.[/quote]

Ben and Widmore prefigures MIB and Jacob. In fact Ben seems to be in the place of the black smoke monster. Widmore in place of Jacob.

Anyways, It seems there is this constant cycle of people coming to the island and then destruction and corruption.
Dharma was wiped out by another group, Black Rock was there before, but what happened to them? There were others that came before them that built ancient monuments. Anyways, Jacob talks about progress, and people come and do good stuff, and then get corrupted. As for MIB, he is convinced that it is futile. I think that MIB has been manipulating his way through Ben to purge Dharma, remove Widmore, heal Locke (who would see the beauty in the island while everyone else was terrified of the smoke monster), stop the 108 from counting down (Ben told Locke that he pushed no button and nothing happened) which caused the hatch to explode, and Mr. Eko gets killed for trying to push the button every 108 seconds, getting Locke to leave the island, Ben to kill him, and then bring Locke back, tell Richard Alpert that Locke is the new leader, thus cycling in on itself, discard Ben, and kill Jacob. And he doesn't stop there, he manipulated Claire and Zayid to get into the temple.
The deception, manipulation, destruction, and backstabbing runs deep.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='03 March 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1267629279' post='2065896']
How is running around an island as a black pillar of smoke slaughtering people good? The children are also all with John Locke as well, which is deeply concerning. We are running out of time though to answer like 200 unresolved questions which could make this the best show on tv or the worst.
[/quote]
How is lying, torture, and murder good? Because that is Jacob's side. Even Jacob deceives.

'Locke' gave everyone a chance to get out of the temple. At this point he is the only side who is still possibly good.

If he isn't, then it really is just one evil side against another.

[kafka]

I loved Keamy acting all crazy. That was good.

Here is my understanding at this point.

Both sides are obviously flawed, however my idea is that Jacob has the intention of redeeming the Oceanic Six and the others he chose such as Ben, Togen, etc. Yet he is working his plan of redemption seemlessly into the web of Smokey's plan of getting off the Island. Like a chess game. It is clear to me that Smokey/Man in Black/Bad Locke wants to get off the Island in order to wreak havoc in the world.

This is why things are so messy and why Jacob demands a sort of faith. Things arent perfect because of free will. Jacob can only do so much to guide his people along their paths, but they have to make decisions on their own and he makes provisions for these.

He has sort of a providence that is truly forceful at times but for the most part people have to make decisions on their own. That is the variable. Jacob is everyone's constant. And so he is preparing them for these ultimate decisions which must be made by the end of the season which will affect the rest of their lives as is clear in the alternate reality-mainland sequences. He is preparing Jack to 'do' something important. He knew Ben would kill him but he is still going to redeem Ben since in the alternate mainland reality Ben is a teacher and seems happy.

Anywho, I am sad that Sayid went evil, but in the mainland alternate reality he isnt evil, so we will see where all this is headed.

Edited March 3, 2010 by kafka

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='03 March 2010 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1267636929' post='2065958']
Personally, I think Smoke Monster has been manipulating the Others every time around.

[quote]Ben: wake up Charles
Widmore: I wondered when you were gonna show up, I see you've been getting more sun.
Ben: Iraq is lovely this time of year. When did you start sleeping with a bottle of scotch by the bed.
Widmore: When the nightmares started. Have you come here to kill me Benjamin.
Ben: We both know I can't do that.
Widmore: Then why are you here?
Ben: I'm here Charles, because you murdered my daughter.
Widmore: Don't stand there and come at me with those terrible lies of yours and lay the blame of the death of that poor girl on me. We both know very well I didn't murder her at all. You did.
Ben: No thats not true.
Widmore. No Benjamin, its not. You creep into my bedroom in the dead of night and have the audacity to say that you're the victim? I know who you are boy, what you are. I know that everything you have, you took from me. So once again I ask you, Why are you here?
Ben: I'm here Charles, to tell you that I'm going to kill your daughter. Penelope is it? And once shes gone, once shes dead, then you'll understand how I feel, and wish you hadn't changed the rules.
Widmore: You'll never find her. That island's mine, always was, and it will be again
Ben: But you'll never find it.
Widmore: Then I suppose the hunt is on for both of us.[/quote]

Compare this to the conversation between Jacob and Man in Black

[quote]MIB: Morning
Jacob: Morning
MIB: mind if join you?
Jacob: Please, want some fish?
MIB: Thank you (shakes head), I just ate.
Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship?
MIB: How'd they find the island?
Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here...
MIB: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
Jacob: You are wrong.
MIB: Am I? They come, fight, destroy, and corrupt. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once. Everything that happens before that, is just progress.
MIB: You have any idea how badly I want to kill you?
Jacob: Yes.
MIB: One of these days, sooner or later, I'll find a loophole my friend.
Jacob: Well when you do, I'll be right here.
MIB: Always nice talking to you Jacob.[/quote]

Ben and Widmore prefigures MIB and Jacob. In fact Ben seems to be in the place of the black smoke monster. Widmore in place of Jacob.

Anyways, It seems there is this constant cycle of people coming to the island and then destruction and corruption.
Dharma was wiped out by another group, Black Rock was there before, but what happened to them? There were others that came before them that built ancient monuments. Anyways, Jacob talks about progress, and people come and do good stuff, and then get corrupted. As for MIB, he is convinced that it is futile. I think that MIB has been manipulating his way through Ben to purge Dharma, remove Widmore, heal Locke (who would see the beauty in the island while everyone else was terrified of the smoke monster), stop the 108 from counting down (Ben told Locke that he pushed no button and nothing happened) which caused the hatch to explode, and Mr. Eko gets killed for trying to push the button every 108 seconds, getting Locke to leave the island, Ben to kill him, and then bring Locke back, tell Richard Alpert that Locke is the new leader, thus cycling in on itself, discard Ben, and kill Jacob. And he doesn't stop there, he manipulated Claire and Zayid to get into the temple.
The deception, manipulation, destruction, and backstabbing runs deep.
[/quote]

YESSSSSSS!! I like!!!

I also wonder just [b]how deep[/b] the deception, manipulation, destruction, and backstabbing runs. I mean... could Smokey have used the form of "Jacob" to convince the Others to follow him in the first place?

I mean, if that's true... if the "Jacob" we've heard about throughout seasons 1-5 has really been somehow a faker (MIB/Smokey), then I'd totally be hating "Jacob". I mean... for one thing, last night when Dogen was speaking with Sayid about the "deal" Fake-Locke made about getting Nadia back (or whatever would make him the happiest) vs. the deal Jacob made with Dogen to save his son....

That just set off a red-alarm for me and further reinforced my questioning of "Jacob" as we've known him thus far.

[kafka]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='03 March 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1267640743' post='2066021']

That just set off a red-alarm for me and further reinforced my questioning of "Jacob" as we've known him thus far.
[/quote]
I think, you are over-thinking it See my post above.