Ugly Churches

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Innocent' date='16 October 2009 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1255753758' post='1986795']
I'm not sure I understand you clearly. For instance, do you disagree with C.S. Lewis in [url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm"][i]The Abolition of Man[/i][/url] when he says,



Of course, he's talking about a waterfall here, not about a church or a woman, but the principle being discussed is still physical beauty, isn't it?



All the same, I have read in several articles that symmetry of physical characteristics plays a major role in the perception of beauty across many cultures:

[center][img]http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u114/symmetry.jpg[/img]

|| [url="http://jorthod.maneyjournals.org/cgi/content/full/28/2/159"]0[/url] || [url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080507083952.htm"]1[/url] || [url="http://www.perceptionweb.com/abstract.cgi?id=v050498"]2[/url] || [url="http://www.stuartwilde.com/articles/redeemers/perception_symmetry_beauty.html"]3[/url] || [url="http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahshow/20090304-tows-science-sex-appeal/3"]4[/url] || [url="http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/1536/do-hidden-facial-features-make-men-sexy"]5[/url] || [url="http://www.uic.edu/classes/orla/orla312/TeethBeautyBiologyHealth.htm"]6[/url] || [url="http://xenlogic.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/the-science-of-beauty/"]7[color="#FF0000"][b]*[/b][/color][/url] || [url="http://www.nhs.uk/news/2008/05May/Pages/Facialsymmetryandgenderperception.aspx"]8[/url] || [url="http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-small-talk/200812/it-pays-be-pretty"]9[/url] || [url="http://www.smh.com.au/news/beauty/drawing-the-line-on-beauty/2007/10/15/1192300644078.html"]10[/url] ||[/center]

Thus we also hear of computer programs that measure beauty: [url="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/afot-tst040408.php"]Link[/url] [url="http://www.impactlab.com/2008/03/31/software-that-ranks-facial-attractiveness/"], Alt. link[/url]


Can't we take that to indicate that there is some common foundation for the perception of beauty upon which one's personal preferences are added?

[color="#FF0000"][b]*[/b][/color][size="1"]I'm not sure who the author of this particular article is, and it's only on a blog, not on a science website. Also, there are a couple of photos of beauty contestants in swimsuits in that article; just giving warning in case that would be a temptation to you.
[/size]
[/quote]

Yes I disagree with him. I do not believe that any inanimate object merits one universal reaction from the viewers. What I do believe is that certain commonalities, such as our culture or religion, act as a premise for our reaction. But it's hardly some deep, archetypical reaction found embedded in our human nature.

This discussion is a perfect example actually (chill out Apo, I'm not talking theology). The majority of Phatmassers are devout Catholics so the common consensus is that statues, icons and bells are beautiful. Post the same pictures (Orthodox Church) on a fundamentalist protestant forum and I doubt you'd get the same response. Why? Because our perception of beauty is determined (among other things) by cultural and social factors.

Edited October 17, 2009 by OraProMe

[Apotheoun]

Icons are not primarily about beauty - subjective or objective - instead they are about the manifestation of presence.

[OraProMe]

NOT TALKING ABOUT ICONS!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='17 October 2009 - 07:08 AM' timestamp='1255784898' post='1986917']
NOT TALKING ABOUT ICONS!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!
[/quote]
Then stop confusing notions of beauty with the iconography that is placed into Churches for the purpose of veneration. Icons can be beautiful, but not all of them are, nor is beauty - subjectively or objectively understood - the reason for icons in a Church building.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote]In mathematics and the arts, two quantities are in the golden ratio if the ratio of the sum of the quantities to the larger quantity is equal to (=) the ratio of the larger quantity to the smaller one. The golden ratio is an irrational mathematical constant, approximately 1.6180339887.[1] Other names frequently used for the golden ratio are the golden section (Latin: sectio aurea) and golden mean.[2][3][4] Other terms encountered include extreme and mean ratio,[5] medial section, divine proportion, divine section (Latin: sectio divina), golden proportion, golden cut,[6] golden number, and mean of Phidias.[7][8][9] The golden ratio is often denoted by the Greek letter phi, usually lower case (φ).
The figure on the right illustrates the geometric relationship that defines this constant.:

This equation has as its unique positive solution the algebraic irrational number
[1]
[b]At least since the Renaissance[/b], many artists and architects have proportioned their works to approximate the golden ratio—especially in the form of the golden rectangle, in which the ratio of the longer side to the shorter is the golden ratio—[b]believing this proportion to be aesthetically pleasing[/b]. Mathematicians have studied the golden ratio because of its unique and interesting properties.[/quote]

Edited October 17, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 October 2009 - 09:09 AM' timestamp='1255788541' post='1986931']
Then stop confusing notions of beauty with the iconography that is placed into Churches for the purpose of veneration. Icons can be beautiful, but not all of them are, nor is beauty - subjectively or objectively understood - the reason for icons in a Church building.
[/quote]

Oh my gosh. I am not, and have not, been talking about the theological meaning of icons. I am not talking about icons. Period. I don't know how many times I've said that now. You have icons on the brain

Edited October 17, 2009 by OraProMe

[Maximilianus]

In Art school we learned about the golden ratio by way of the Fibonbacci spiral(nautilus shape)
We didn't get into the mathematical aspect of it...I don't think my brain could have handled it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 October 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1255669715' post='1986327']
Although my personal taste in church architecture is the same as yours it should be noted that physical beauty is a completely subjective concept.
[/quote]
You are talking about icons, you evidently are ignorant of the fact that the Church building itself is an icon. That is why I have consistently tried to correct your position which gives too much importance to subjective notions of beauty.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='17 October 2009 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1255823232' post='1987103']
Oh my gosh. I am not, and have not, been talking about the theological meaning of icons. I am not talking about icons. Period. I don't know how many times I've said that now. You have icons on the brain
[/quote]
You have been talking about architecture, and the Church building itself has theological meaning.

[OraProMe]

But from a purely aesthetic point of view, not theological. Innocent and I have also been talking about waterfalls and women. Are we done going around in circles?

Edited October 18, 2009 by OraProMe

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='17 October 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1255823478' post='1987105']
In Art school we learned about the golden ratio by way of the Fibonbacci spiral(nautilus shape)
We didn't get into the mathematical aspect of it...I don't think my brain could have handled it.
[/quote]
I have only a very cursory knowledge of mathematical ratios in nature.

[Innocent]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 October 2009 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1255826449' post='1987120']
You have been talking about architecture, and the Church building itself has theological meaning.
[/quote]

Could you please point us to some Church Documents or Patristic writing that explains the theological significance of Church architecture and the Church building as an icon? I'd be interested in reading them.

Are there specific guidelines as to what must not be done in Church architecture or is it considered that if the architect is sufficiently steeped in Sacred Tradition he will have the [i]sensus fidei[/i] (is that the right term?) to design a Church properly as an icon?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Innocent' date='18 October 2009 - 01:36 AM' timestamp='1255851410' post='1987240']
Could you please point us to some Church Documents or Patristic writing that explains the theological significance of Church architecture and the Church building as an icon? I'd be interested in reading them.

Are there specific guidelines as to what must not be done in Church architecture or is it considered that if the architect is sufficiently steeped in Sacred Tradition he will have the [i]sensus fidei[/i] (is that the right term?) to design a Church properly as an icon?
[/quote]
One of the best books for that type of information was written by Fr. Kucharek and is called "The Byzantine Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom," because in certain parts of the book he highlights the celestial nature of the Church building itself, which is filled with divine energy and which signifies the recreated cosmos. Moreover, the Church building is also prefigured by Noah's ark and the Temple of Solomon, for in fact they were mere shadows of the reality found only in the Church and her worship.

Another good book to read on this subject is called "Myth and Ritual in Christianity," for that text gives some very good explanations in connection with the sacred space (i.e., the Church) where worship of the divine majesty occurs in a unique way, for the Church building is the point of intersection between heaven and earth, or - to speak more accurately - it is a bubble of the divine uncreated glory within the diastemic world, and this holy mystery is why during the Byzantine Paschal liturgy the priest leads the people in a procession around the Church building eventually stopping at the central doors, which he censes and then knocks against with his cross so that the doors open and he and the people enter into the celestial Temple of God, the Holy Place, and finally at communion the people receive the holy Eucharist at the holy doors of the iconostasis, which is the portal to the Holy of Holies, the very throne of God itself made manifest upon earth.

Now, if you want more details on this idea from a Western perspective I would recommend Pope Benedict's book on the liturgy (see Part 1, Chapter 2; and Part 2, Chapter 2).

"[i]I venerate every holy temple of God and everything in which God is affirmed not on account of its own nature but because it is the receptacle of divine energy[/i]" (St. John of Damascus, P.G. 94, 1353B).