Questions On Vows (Obedience, Chastity, Poverty)

[Jennifer G.]

I was just thinking about how these vows are done/followed/taken in religious life. I'll use poverty as an example. I was reading something on the Internet (a vision that a 19th century nun had about Hell and about those who broke their vows - I had thought about this before reading that, too), and was thinking about poverty, where the nun owns nothing. I was also thinking about the movie "A Nun's Story" (where they scribbled everything in a notebook - i.e., if they sought the company of another, if they spoke during the Great Silence), and the "Teresa of Avila" (there were a few funny scenes with the itchy habits - would that be a sin against a vow, too - seeking comfort via scratching?) movie that was on EWTN last night. In "A Nun's Story", there was this scene where two nuns are taking care of the sick nun (the star of the movie), and one is looking at something in the room and says, '"...why this reminds me of - oh!" (whips out her notebook *scribble* *scribble* *scribble*)'. So, her thought was a sin against poverty, or obidence, right? If she were to keep that thought private, would it be a sin against the vow of poverty? (i.e., possesing a wonderful memory)

To use a simplier example, if a nun were to look at something even as simple as pouring water into a container and it reminded her of a favorite childhood activity and she kept that thought to herself, would that be a sin against poverty/obedience, or just getting scruptulous?

How far does Obedience go, too? What if another sister/nun tells you to do something that is really, really bad? Would you still be obligated to fullfil that obedience? I was reading in St. Faustina's diary once where a jealous sister wanted her to tell a lie, which she did. What if you tell Mother Superior and the other sister (falsely) denies it?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1255903289' post='1987474']
I was just thinking about how these vows are done/followed/taken in religious life. I'll use poverty as an example. I was reading something on the Internet (a vision that a 19th century nun had about Hell and about those who broke their vows - I had thought about this before reading that, too), and was thinking about poverty, where the nun owns nothing. I was also thinking about the movie "A Nun's Story" (where they scribbled everything in a notebook - i.e., if they sought the company of another, if they spoke during the Great Silence), and the "Teresa of Avila" (there were a few funny scenes with the itchy habits - would that be a sin against a vow, too - seeking comfort via scratching?) movie that was on EWTN last night. In "A Nun's Story", there was this scene where two nuns are taking care of the sick nun (the star of the movie), and one is looking at something in the room and says, '"...why this reminds me of - oh!" (whips out her notebook *scribble* *scribble* *scribble*)'. So, her thought was a sin against poverty, or obidence, right? If she were to keep that thought private, would it be a sin against the vow of poverty? (i.e., possesing a wonderful memory)

To use a simplier example, if a nun were to look at something even as simple as pouring water into a container and it reminded her of a favorite childhood activity and she kept that thought to herself, would that be a sin against poverty/obedience, or just getting scruptulous?

How far does Obedience go, too? What if another sister/nun tells you to do something that is really, really bad? Would you still be obligated to fullfil that obedience? I was reading in St. Faustina's diary once where a jealous sister wanted her to tell a lie, which she did. What if you tell Mother Superior and the other sister (falsely) denies it?
[/quote]


You are confusing a lot of different things here and also throwing in just a little bit of scrupulosity as well. So take a step back and look at the spirit behind all these "rules" and don't get quite so hung up on the "Pharisee" view of things.

There are imperfections; there are faults (usually against the Rule;) and there are sins, and these are not at all the same thing. Imperfections are usually little things (like being distracted during prayer time, etc) and affect mainly yourself - things you might consider during an Examen of Conscience and ask Jesus for help in overcoming these. Faults are external only and affect the community (such as slamming a door, breaking a cup etc) and are usually declared as a "culpe" during Chapter of Faults (or to the Novice Mistress if one is a postulant or Novice) and there is sometimes a small penance involved (although not always for those in the Novitiate). Sins - well, I am sure you know what sins are, and these are NOT declared to anyone except a priest during confession. We do NOT tell sins to our sisters, Our Novice Mistress or Our Superior.

Don't believe everything you see in a movie or read in a book since artistic license is often used to make things seem more interesting, and very often, the facts are misinterpreted or just mistaken. I don't see any relevance between some of the examples you quoted and the vow of poverty, which is mainly being aware that nothing is owned personally and that everything is shared in common. Poverty also reminds us that we need to take care of everything because it is not "mine", it is "ours", and often we have to ask permission to use things to remind us again that we don't own anything. Holy poverty is not the same thing as destitution or worldly poverty - it is a state of mind that guides our actions.

As for obedience, this vow relates to one's superior, not to every sister who asks you anything (although charity steps in here), and NEVER is anyone allowed to ask you to sin or do anything that is unlawful or against the teachings of the Church - even a Superior. But every lawful request given by one's superior should be seen as the will of God working through her.

In the Rule of St Albert, which is used by the Carmelites, he says [i]"See that the bounds of common sense are not exceeded, however, for common sense is the guide of the virtues."[/i] This means, leave aside the scrupulosity but follow the Rule and the Constitutions of your community as perfectly as possible in a spirit of love and self-surrender.

Edited October 18, 2009 by nunsense

[Jennifer G.]

Thanks for the info. I'm a recent convert (2008), so I'm still learning, and the only thing I know about nuns are either movies, or things I've heard (of which are from older family members who aren't Catholic and I think are confusing pre-Vatican II things), so it's hard to sort through what's what.

I still wonder how it's possible to confess your sins every week in a convent, though (sometimes I find it hard to think of sins now). And then there's one quote I read (one of the church doctors?) about even the most pious people sin at least 7 times a day.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 09:50 AM' timestamp='1255906219' post='1987515']
Thanks for the info. I'm a recent convert (2008), so I'm still learning, and the only thing I know about nuns are either movies, or things I've heard (of which are from older family members who aren't Catholic and I think are confusing pre-Vatican II things), so it's hard to sort through what's what.

I still wonder how it's possible to confess your sins every week in a convent, though (sometimes I find it hard to think of sins now). And then there's one quote I read (one of the church doctors?) about even the most pious people sin at least 7 times a day.
[/quote]

Ah - don't get hung up on the letter of the law, but focus on the spirit. In Carmel we had confession once every two weeks. Cardinal Sheen (I think it was, but I am happy to be corrected here) said that hearing confession from nuns was like being stoned with popcorn! It is true that there aren't usually any grave sins to confess in religious life, but consider all those little things like getting angry because someone did something that irritated you or perhaps you found another sister's conversation at recreation very uninteresting so you changed the subject to something that was more interesting to you. Later you realized that this was very self-centered and it would have been an act of charity to have expressed an interest in the other sister's topic and perhaps you might even have found it interesting in the end if you had persevered. Very small things, but it is from acorns that big trees grow! If a little anger or irritation (pride) is allowed to grow, pretty soon the plant is too big to pull out easily! So every confession is as opportunity to ask God for help in denying the self and learning to love. On those occasions when I absolutely couldn't think of a single sin to confess, my spiritual director told me that I should just acknowledge to the priest that although I couldn't remember any, I knew that I was a sinner and that I wanted to be reconciled to God for all those sins I had forgotten or didn't realize that I had committed. The sacrament of Reconciliation is such a cleansing of the soul, that we just can't appreciate it too much!

If anything good comes out of sin, it is the recognition of God's mercy in loving us anyway! So, rather than focus on the sins, we need to focus on God's love and mercy for each one of us.

As for the true nun information - there are many wonderful resources to find out the truth, and although I would recommend reading biographies, do be careful about the pre-Vat 2 ones as opposed to the post Council ones, because things have changed, even in those cloistered communities that are very traditional. The emphasis is more on God's love today, than on our wretchedness. It is much nicer to look at Him!

There is a good biography of Mother Angelica, who started the EWTN (Catholic) TV network ( written by Raymond Arroyo) - and you might like that. It covers many years, and how her nuns changed over time as well.

You could also contact local religious communities and ask for information about them - or if they could recommend good books to read. Most sisters don't have a lot of time to write about their lives until they retire, so a lot of the books about nuns are about the pre-Vat 2 period or were written during the time of change and upheaval after the Council, and are really not balanced.

Or, and here is a bright idea, keep asking your questions here on phatmass! There are several religious sisters who post on here and who could offer you some really good information and advice about religious life today!

Edited October 18, 2009 by nunsense

[Jennifer G.]

[quote name='nunsense' date='18 October 2009 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1255907588' post='1987528']

You could also contact local religious communities and ask for information about them - or if they could recommend good books to read. Most sisters don't have a lot of time to write about their lives until they retire,...
[/quote]

Which brings up another question!

Do cloistered nuns retire? Or do all cloistered nuns stay in the convent until they die? (I was watching this scene on the Teresa of Avila film last night where the sister goes to each door and opens it, and you see a sister (hopefully) doing something. The thought occured to me that it might be a little scary/disconcerning to see a fellow sister collapsed on the floor, or unexpectedly passed away).

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1255908789' post='1987535']
Which brings up another question!

Do cloistered nuns retire? Or do all cloistered nuns stay in the convent until they die? (I was watching this scene on the Teresa of Avila film last night where the sister goes to each door and opens it, and you see a sister (hopefully) doing something. The thought occured to me that it might be a little scary/disconcerning to see a fellow sister collapsed on the floor, or unexpectedly passed away).
[/quote]

Don't forget that every community is different, active and contemplative - and there are differences even in each Carmelite community.

It is very unlikely that you would ever experience what you described at a Carmel though because Carmelite nuns are not permitted to enter the cell of another nun, except for the Prioress, the Novice Mistress or one's "angel" (a sister assigned to help out in the beginning). Once again, the movie doesn't accurately describe the life because they are trying to show nuns doing things and it wouldn't be as visually stimulating if they just knocked on the door and waited for the "Deo gratias" and for the sister to come to answer the door. If the sister does not answer, then one more knock is given, but if there is still no answer, then the sister (who is doing the knocking), goes away! There is no opening the door and looking in! But they show the nun looking into the cell - visually a better movie but not as true to life. Cells are very private places in Carmel.

The Carmels I have been at have tried to keep the elderly sister/s in the community as long as possible, especially if that is what she wants. There is a Carmelite nursing home in England (run by Carmelites for Carmelites) - and some sisters are happy to go there where they can get the attention they need. Otherwise an elderly sister can be cared for by the other sisters in the community until she goes to God. The problem with this is that with less vocations today, and an agining population, there are not as many nuns to help with the care, especially during the night, when one has to be up at 5.30am. It is a great act of charity when a community can keep their elderly sisters but sometimes the medical needs or nursing care required is just too great for the community to handle. As I said, it is a very individual thing from community to community, and from order to order. I have no idea how the Benedictines or Franciscans handle this kind of thing, although I would assume that it is always with great charity to the elderly sister.

Edited October 18, 2009 by nunsense

[Jennifer G.]

[quote name='nunsense' date='18 October 2009 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1255909579' post='1987541']
Don't forget that every community is different, active and contemplative - and there are differences even in each Carmelite community.

It is very unlikely that you would ever experience what you described at a Carmel though because Carmelite nuns are not permitted to enter the cell of another nun, except for the Prioress, the Novice Mistress or one's "angel" (a sister assigned to help out in the beginning). Once again, the movie doesn't accurately describe the life because they are trying to show nuns doing things and it wouldn't be as visually stimulating if they just knocked on the door and waited for the "Deo gratias" and for the sister to come to answer the door. If the sister does not answer, then one more knock is given, but if there is still no answer, then the sister (who is doing the knocking), goes away! There is no opening the door and looking in! But they show the nun looking into the cell - visually a better movie but not as true to life. Cells are very private places in Carmel.

The Carmels I have been at have tried to keep the elderly sister/s in the community as long as possible, especially if that is what she wants. There is a Carmelite nursing home in England (run by Carmelites for Carmelites) - and some sisters are happy to go there where they can get the attention they need. Otherwise an elderly sister can be cared for by the other sisters in the community until she goes to God. The problem with this is that with less vocations today, and an agining population, there are not as many nuns to help with the care, especially during the night, when one has to be up at 5.30am. It is a great act of charity when a community can keep their elderly sisters but sometimes the medical needs or nursing care required is just too great for the community to handle. As I said, it is a very individual thing from community to community, and from order to order. I have no idea how the Benedictines or Franciscans handle this kind of thing, although I would assume that it is always with great charity to the elderly sister.
[/quote]

It's the Carmelite orders that I'm interested in. Which orders have you looked at? I know about the 1990 and 1991 constitutions, so I'm trying to look at the ones that have the 1990 consitution. Although, there's Port Tobacco Carmel, whose website I keep going back to (do they have two hours of contemplative prayer? Is it a good, traditional order? I'm just worried about what I read about the 1991s in that the sisters can change what's done in the convent).

The problem I would have though, is because of my hearing loss, I wouldn't even hear the knock on the door at 5:30am (if I happened to sleep in)!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='18 October 2009 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1255911097' post='1987557']
The problem I would have though, is because of my hearing loss, I wouldn't even hear the knock on the door at 5:30am (if I happened to sleep in)!
[/quote]

Most (if not all) communities that follow the 1990 Constitutions (and some 1991 Carmels) use the clapper/clacker to wake nuns up in the morning. I have heard what it sounds like, and it would be difficult to miss (very noisy ). If, somehow, the nun didn't hear it, I don't know what would be done in that instance. Maybe a loud alarm clock could be used when you enter? This is something to be discussed with the monastery Superior upon application to their community.

Edited October 19, 2009 by InHisLove726

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1255911097' post='1987557']
It's the Carmelite orders that I'm interested in. Which orders have you looked at? I know about the 1990 and 1991 constitutions, so I'm trying to look at the ones that have the 1990 consitution. Although, there's Port Tobacco Carmel, whose website I keep going back to (do they have two hours of contemplative prayer? Is it a good, traditional order? I'm just worried about what I read about the 1991s in that the sisters can change what's done in the convent).

The problem I would have though, is because of my hearing loss, I wouldn't even hear the knock on the door at 5:30am (if I happened to sleep in)!
[/quote]


You are moving a little fast. you say you are a convert from 2008. What's the rush? How old are you? Before choosing to enter a cloistered community, nevermind which constitutions, you need to deepen your relationship with God and His Church. Are you actively involved in your parish? Are there certain ministries that attract you more than others? What is the fascination with Carmel - is it about the lifestyle or the prayer? There are so many things to consider before simply choosing a community.

Most importantly of all - do you have a spiritual director? What does s/he say about your vocation and discernment? Live the love affair with Jesus right now, but don't commit yourself to anything until you have spent some time in discernment under the guidance of a holy and wise SD. If you are thinking of Carmel - some questions to ask yourself. do you like solitude? Do you like quiet? Would you feel a sense of isolation if you were only allowed to speak to another person twice a day at recreation - and you had no choice in who you sat next to? Do you like manual work like sewing? Do you like to cook and clean and garden? The life of a Carmelite nun is a very intensely and physically demanding life as well as one of solitude and silence. It is also very busy, all day long, with the bells controlling every moment of your time. There is very little "unstructured time" where you can do what you want to do. Have you read St Therese's biography? Because her life is pretty much what it is still like in a 1990 Carmel. It sounds very romantic and beautiful (and it is) but it also demands a total surrender of self-will (which can feel a little like death) but also stamina and determination and a total lack of self-pity! I won't write about the beauties of the life because I think you need a cool head to balance your inflamed heart right now.

Get some spiritual direction! Read the Carmelite saints (St Teresa's "Way of Perfection - written for her nuns). Don't read St John of the Cross yet - please don't. Don't read Teresa's Interior Castle yes either. Read St Therese first and then the WofP.

You are in my prayers, you little Carmelite you!

Edited October 19, 2009 by nunsense

[Jennifer G.]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='18 October 2009 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1255912850' post='1987571']
Most (if not all) communities that follow the 1990 Constitutions (and some 1991 Carmels) use the clapper/clacker to wake nuns up in the morning. I have heard what it sounds like, and it would be difficult to miss (very noisy ). If, somehow, the nun didn't hear it, I don't know what would be done in that instance. Maybe a loud alarm clock could be used when you enter? This is something to be discussed with the monastery Superior upon application to their community.
[/quote]

I wonder if I can have sound proofing in the cell - or at least one wall in a corner cell, since I'd need a pretty loud alarm clock! Although, I do tend to sleep on a 10pm-5:30am (give or take 30 minutes) schedule anyway. It's just that sometimes I drift back to sleep for another 90 minutes. Now, having to buy hearing aid batteries constantly is another thing... Of course, I probably wouldn't need them anyway during the Great Silence.


One more odd question... do the nuns get to use bathroom facilities in the morning/night? I would hate to go all day with gunk in my mouth.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='19 October 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1255913379' post='1987581']
I wonder if I can have sound proofing in the cell - or at least one wall in a corner cell, since I'd need a pretty loud alarm clock! Although, I do tend to sleep on a 10pm-5:30am (give or take 30 minutes) schedule anyway. It's just that sometimes I drift back to sleep for another 90 minutes. Now, having to buy hearing aid batteries constantly is another thing... Of course, I probably wouldn't need them anyway during the Great Silence.
[/quote]

Now you made me smile! If you are serious about a Carmelite vocation, then no more "drifting" for 90 minutes. Try this... when the alarm goes off, you immediately kneel up in the bed (leaping as if the bed itself were on fire) and pray silently "My God, I wake at dawn of day to think of you, to love you, to serve you, and to do all things according to your holy Will!" Then quickly rise off the bed, dip your finger in holy water and make the sign of the Cross on yourself, and immediately prostrate yourself on the floor to adore God and to ask for the blessing of Our Lord and His holy Mother (this should be done in the space of an Our Father). Then wash your face in cold water, brush your teeth and put on your clothes, and (if you were in Carmel, you would then strive to be the first in the choir) then kneel to say your own private morning devotions before starting an hour's meditation. Since you are used to sleeping in for an extra 90 minutes, you have plenty of time to do all this! At the end of your meditation, recite the Invitatory and Morning Prayer. After MP, the great silence ends and you can then speak again and go back to make your bed and clean your cell. You don't get breakfast for another hour (after Mass). Are you ready for this?

[Jennifer G.]

[quote name='nunsense' date='18 October 2009 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1255914893' post='1987595']
Now you made me smile! If you are serious about a Carmelite vocation, then no more "drifting" for 90 minutes. Try this... when the alarm goes off, you immediately kneel up in the bed (leaping as if the bed itself were on fire) and pray silently "My God, I wake at dawn of day to think of you, to love you, to serve you, and to do all things according to your holy Will!" Then quickly rise off the bed, dip your finger in holy water and make the sign of the Cross on yourself, and immediately prostrate yourself on the floor to adore God and to ask for the blessing of Our Lord and His holy Mother (this should be done in the space of an Our Father). Then wash your face in cold water, brush your teeth and put on your clothes, and (if you were in Carmel, you would then strive to be the first in the choir) then kneel to say your own private morning devotions before starting an hour's meditation. Since you are used to sleeping in for an extra 90 minutes, you have plenty of time to do all this! At the end of your meditation, recite the Invitatory and Morning Prayer. After MP, the great silence ends and you can then speak again and go back to make your bed and clean your cell. You don't get breakfast for another hour (after Mass). Are you ready for this?

[/quote]

My walls are sloping roofs. I'd hit my head if I lept! I've been trying to get myself up the first hint of waking up, though. Kind of hard, but I might be able to do it after awhile. Maybe I should try not having a thick blanket on my bed. That way, I'll HAVE to get up. Granted, then it's usually 3:30am. I'll try it, though. What time do carmelites usually go to sleep?

Edited October 19, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='18 October 2009 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1255916438' post='1987606']
My walls are sloping roofs. I'd hit my head if I lept! I've been trying to get myself up the first hint of waking up, though. Kind of hard, but I might be able to do it after awhile. Maybe I should try not having a thick blanket on my bed. That way, I'll HAVE to get up. Granted, then it's usually 3:30am. I'll try it, though. What time do carmelites usually go to sleep?
[/quote]

The monastery I am discerning with has bedtime of 10:30pm, with the next morning beginning at 5:25. This is generally true for most Carmels, but I have seen some that have morning rise at 4:00am (Pittsford/Rochester Carmel is one of them).

[url="http://www.carmelitesofrochester.org/Page%204%20Daily%20Life.html"]Rochester Carmel's Horarium[/url]

Edited October 19, 2009 by InHisLove726

[Jennifer G.]

[quote name='InHisLove726' date='18 October 2009 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1255916729' post='1987610']
The monastery I am discerning with has bedtime of 10:30pm, with the next morning beginning at 5:25. This is generally true for most Carmels, but I have seen some that have morning rise at 4:00am (Pittsford/Rochester Carmel is one of them).

[url="http://www.carmelitesofrochester.org/Page%204%20Daily%20Life.html"]Rochester Carmel's Horarium[/url]
[/quote]

I've looked at that one, too. Fortunately, free time is 8pm. So, I'm guessing the nuns could retire for the night earlier if they wanted? (Plus, they have the Rosary! "Bonus" points on my 'list' of possible carmels.)

Edited October 19, 2009 by Jennifer G.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Jennifer G.' date='18 October 2009 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1255918361' post='1987631']
I've looked at that one, too. Fortunately, free time is 8pm. So, I'm guessing the nuns could retire for the night earlier if they wanted? (Plus, they have the Rosary! "Bonus" points on my 'list' of possible carmels.)
[/quote]

At Rochester, it may be allowed to go to bed early since they do not have prayers after free time, but this may have to be discussed with the Superior if you are interested in this particular monastery. At most monasteries I have seen, free time is for personal prayer in the cell before the nuns gather to recite Matins before retiring.