Leaving The Motherhouse

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1335295458' post='2422807']
My heart is saddened to see the callousness with which this situation is being treated. Can we leave the politics aside and just say that it is sad that these women are losing their home? Can we say that we will pray for their hearts to heal? Can we say that we are sorry that this has happened to them? Can we say that in our love for Christ, our love for them calls us to empathize with losing what you care about? How sad that something like this must be transformed into an argument and an ideological showdown and even worse as an opportunity to throw out those women like trash and replace them with something new and shiny. God never relates to us in this way - or all of us would already be in the garbage.

I truly hope that God does not speak to your souls the way you have spoken about these women without knowing them, without speaking to them, without working with them. I hope when you are sad and in pain He comforts you, gives you His love, and holds you close to His heart. I hope he speaks words of tenderness and love to you even if you have brought your pain upon yourself. I hope that in your trials, which you will have, He stands by you and carries you, holds you, and loves you through them. I hope you hear words of mercy at the revelation of your shortcomings and not cries of victory.

Do you think that if one of those sisters stumbled upon this website and this thread that your words would warm her heart to "come back" to the Church? Do you think she would find in your words the words of God calling her to himself? Do you think she would read them and think of the wisdom contained in them? Do you think she would be able to exclaim "finally I have found the truth for which I have been seeking and yearning!" Do you think your words would carry with them the joy of the Holy Spirit that comes even in realizing one has sinned or done something wrong?

What is your intention in everything you have written? Has it been to encourage holiness? to promote charity and love? to build up the Kingdom of God?

I have to say after the past few days of different topics about sisters that I am not sure that I can any longer support this website or continue to visit here and still obey my conscience and keep peace in my heart. Please try to remember that you know relatively nothing about religious life compared with those who have lived it - it's humility and self-knowledge to acknowledge this. There are many things in religious life that you can't understand until you are there. There are many things in community that don't make sense until you live it. There are many things I wish to say but I feel they will be futile and only cause more of a disturbance so I will keep them to myself and I will pray for you all - for softer hearts, for gentleness, for compassion, for peace, for reliance on Divine Providence and not on man made excuses or reasons for our troubles.
[/quote]

All of this!

[LaPetiteSoeur]

For me, it is troubling to see so many faithful Catholics lash out or even want these religious orders to die out. Some of these religious orders have been around for over 350 years (and I'm not talking about the Franciscans or the Dominicans, I mean individual religious orders). Their faithfulness has been amazing and I personally hope that they around around for at least 350 more years.

Just because a religious order does not wear a habit, works in social justice ministries (look up the doctrine of Catholic Social Teaching), or have nonconventual living arrangements, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT SISTERS. It does not mean that their vocations are "lesser" than others. [b]The veil doesn't make the nun. Her vows do.[/b] The sisters who live in motherhouses/convents that aren't traditional (like the one that is closing) are largely because of practicality. One order I work with recently built a new retirement house for their sisters as their old one was destroyed in a natural disaster and was too expensive to fix. It does not look like a "regular" motherhouse (is there even such a thing?) and is all one story. Why? Because stairs and elevators are too hard for some of their older sisters to use.

When I posted this link, I had hoped that others would respond in charity and pray for the sisters as they leave their home. and I beg all of you to actually talk to the sisters involved in this reform instead of just reading articles on the internet. Talk to them. Pray with them and for them. And, as always, love them.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1335239160' post='2422500']
I know this is going to sound really REALLY bad but....

These sisters are Sisters of Mercy. I have had more than a few experiences with them and the ones I have met are radical feminists. This empty convent is because they have no vocations. They have no vocations because the majority of them are femnists. Young women today are not interested in this radicalism let alone nuns who are, for the most part, disobient to the Magisterium.

Again, I know this sounds awful but this has been my experience. Yes, it is a beautiful chapel, and the grounds are lovely. I hope some well-deserving, faithful community of nuns (or priests) take it over.

Okay...I'll go hide now!
[/quote]
Please do not make blanket statements about a religious order. The Sisters of Mercy I have worked with (and had the blessing to work with, because they are amazing religious) are not unfaithful to the Church or the Vatican. They are just as deserving to stay in that motherhouse if they want to, but it is not feasible if there are many older sisters. The stairs must be awful for them to use and as the building is very old, it is very expensive to keep.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1335268713' post='2422578']
Whoa! Matellata! I never said I wished suffering on these sisters or "rejoiced" in it. Don't read into my posts like that. And please don't state that I or anyone who disagrees with these sisters are "un-Christ-like." Christ was firm when he needed to be.

Ladies, please. I have a very VERY valid reason for speaking as I do. This articles if from the New York Times! The most liberal newspaper in the United States. Fr. Z calls it "Hell's Bible." Trust me, they try on purpose to tug at peoples emotions.

These sisters will be well taken care of because the diocese will provide for them, they always do.

I will get off this thread before I cause more disagreement.

Pax et bonum
[/quote]

Just because the photos are from the New York Times do not make it bad. It is INCREDIBLY sad that these sisters have to leave their homes. There is no "tugging on the heartstrings," as this is a painful situation to be in. Imagine having to leave the only home you have ever known as a religious and then being accused of not being "holy" enough by Catholics you served. Compassion and charity are sorely needed here.

[AnneLine]

Dear Sister Marie, thank you for your heartfelt post. My heart breaks for you and all the other sisters who are caught in the middle of this. I agree with what you have written, and I hope you can find it in your heart to stay with us and keep the dialogue open. We need your voice, and you are wanted and loved here.

I only have a few moments now, and I just can't write more about this right now, but I want to emphasize the comments that several people have made that [b]this is the time to reach out in love and support and charity to all religious and priests[/b]... it is hard for them to be so discredited by the public, and also to find critical, judgmental comments on many traditional type Catholic blogs.
I'd hate to see another good religious sister chased off this board.

Many communities, traditional and not-so-traditional and those who are down right radical, are re-thinking what God wants from them. we ALL ought to be doing that all the time! I would hate it if I had to do it with the media breathing over my shoulder! Good grief!

If we lived in the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic, it would be easy to point the finger at them and be critical of this 'new' thing that didn't match traditional religious life. Same thing with the Daughters of Charity... and with St Teresa of Jesus. It takes TIME to get the pieces right. 30 or 50 years is NOT enough time. Let them make the adjustments they need to make... and that will include letting go of beautiful real estate.... and it may include re-thinking changes they have already made. Give them time, space, and pray hard for them!

I do not believe it is my place as a lay woman to judge what any group of religious sisters have done, are doing, or will be doing. I will beg the Holy Spirit to come and enlighten them as they move forward. Most religious are not as 'radical' as some would portray them... except in their love for God and God's people... and that is a wonderful, beautiful thing. All I saw in the article and slide show was some grieving women, who were being asked to live their vows of poverty even more radically than they ever anticipated.... and far more radically than any of us would willingly do.... to literally give it all up to serve God the best way they see fit. The anger they speak of is normal, appropriate grief. And for good reason. I do and will pray for them.

I also pray for God's love toward all of us, and especially toward our eldest Sisters and Brothers who have tried to give their lives radically in love to Jesus Christ. I respect their efforts, even if I might not agree with every choice they might make, and I value them.

Those who want habits and traditional religious life, those options are there for you. For others, something like what these Sisters have chosen (a lifestyle that is more akin to a secular order) may be the right way to live out their vows.

Bottom line... I believe there is room for both of those options... and I know there are wonderful sisters in those communities.

Come let us TOGETHER walk toward the Lord....

Edited April 24, 2012 by AnneLine

[she_who_is_not]

To bring this around to a more positive note, let's think of things to be grateful about in this situation. The sisters all have a place to go and live. They will be able to continue live out their vocation until death. There is hope for the building. All things ebb and flow. This women have given and will continue to give a wonderful gift to the Church and the world. Though they may no longer live in the motherhouse, they gave many years of service and worship in this building. God will make all things right. Prayers for the sisters and hope that the beautiful motherhouse will continue to house and support God's work, even if we may not see it in this life.

Edited April 24, 2012 by she_who_is_not

[ACS67]

Our experiences are all different. I spent time in Chicago with the Sisters of Mercy. I went to one of their "founding day" celebrations. There we watched a film where it showed them in the "old days" with the habit. The nuns who were in the audience watching booed the screen. They laughed and heckled at the duties that they were "assigned." They said, and I quote, "We were told what to do, when to do it, what to wear, all by men!" On the ride home the sisters were talking about Cardinal George who they all had no love for at all. They said, and I quote, "The Catholic Church is just a boys club." On another occasion (yes I gave them more than one try) I was told after asking for a good priest to talk to in regards to the religious life and someone I could use as a confessor (I was new in town) the sister said, "Priest? Why do you need to talk to a priest! That's silly! I haven't been to confession in over 10 years!" She then laughed.

I tell you all this because this is the experience I have had with the Sisters of Mercy. So, please do not lecture me. I am not a young woman. I am 44 years old...I've been "around the block" a few times.

I stand my ground. The Sisters of Mercy are proud to be liberals and femnists and they fully state as much. Liberalism and feminism are incompatable with Catholic teaching. Period.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1335300643' post='2422838']
Our experiences are all different. I spent time in Chicago with the Sisters of Mercy. I went to one of their "founding day" celebrations. There we watched a film where it showed them in the "old days" with the habit. The nuns who were in the audience watching booed the screen. They laughed and heckled at the duties that they were "assigned." They said, and I quote, "We were told what to do, when to do it, what to wear, all by men!" On the ride home the sisters were talking about Cardinal George who they all had no love for at all. They said, and I quote, "The Catholic Church is just a boys club." On another occasion (yes I gave them more than one try) I was told after asking for a good priest to talk to in regards to the religious life and someone I could use as a confessor (I was new in town) the sister said, "Priest? Why do you need to talk to a priest! That's silly! I haven't been to confession in over 10 years!" She then laughed.

I tell you all this because this is the experience I have had with the Sisters of Mercy. So, please do not lecture me. I am not a young woman. I am 44 years old...I've been "around the block" a few times.

I stand my ground. The Sisters of Mercy are proud to be liberals and femnists and they fully state as much. Liberalism and feminism are incompatable with Catholic teaching. Period.
[/quote]

You are right... all of us have different experiences. The question is, can you accept others experiences as easily as you expect your own to be accepted? What do you think caused those sisters to be so hardened? Could it be that a bishop didn't like their general superior? or their foundress? and so he banished her from her sisters (which is what happened in my community's EXPERIENCE)? Could it be that a priest raped the little boys those sisters were teaching? Could it be that they told and a bishop shut them up? Could it be that they were treated like dirt by their superiors; called names, wrongfully accused of indiscretions? Could it be that they were well educated and treated like stupid children? I'm sorry was all of that too unpleasant, too messy, too uncomfortable? It's unpleasant because it is the truth of what some sisters have lived through. It's unpleasant because it's not right. I wish things were as neat and clean and black and white as you want them to be - it would make right and wrong so easy to discern.

I'm a liberal - whatever that means to you - I know what it means to me. I think I'm a feminist too although I don't care for the connotations that come with the label. I'm also a woman who has taken vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience in public and has had those vows accepted by the Church. You are not. I live under a rule of life accepted by the Church. I teach in a Catholic School. I pray the Rosary every day. I pray the Stations of the Cross every day. I go to Mass every day. I pray every day with the Sisters with whom I live in a convent. I wear a habit. I am well educated. I know wonderful priests and I know some who are a disgrace to the Church. I know some wonderful sisters and I know some who are a disgrace too. I support and love the Church while I call her to accountability. I believe in promoting social justice. I believe abortion is wrong. I recycle because I care about the planet. I love Dorothy Stang AND Teresa of Avila AND latin in Church. I'm a terrible sinner. I don't apologize for any of the person I am.

I refuse to believe that any of the above makes me less of a sister, less of a daughter of God, less of a person loved by Him. The truth is He is the reason I am who I am. He is the mover of my life. He guides me. He is the one that I love. He is the one I belong to! Go ahead - tell me I'm unfaithful! Tell me I'm a heretic! Tell me I'm a no good liberal! Spit in my face. I'll offer it all up for you because I'm committed to Him. I'm committed to Him who was called unfaithful, heretic, and liberal, to Him who was crucified for bringing the Law of Love into the world. And I'm committed to Him who aligned Himself with the poor, the marginal, the sorrowful, the sick - not the Law. So regardless of what you say or think about me - I will be living out of the love He has so generously poured into my heart and I will continue to fight for stewardship of the planet AND an end to abortion, immigration reform AND an end to euthanasia, Catholic education AND the unfair treatment of the poor. So judge away... it won't be the first time and it won't be the last.

[AnneLine]

ACS67, thank you for sharing your experiences; had I experienced what you outline, I might well feel the same way.

I'm older as well... 56 in fact... and I remember the period when all this happened very well too, because I watched it happen around me. I was in elementary and high school when all those things were happening.

Believe it or not, we might not all that far apart in many ways... and I certainly think we would agree that the most important thing goes back to what our Lord said: our goal must be 'to Love God, and to love our neighbor as ourselves." But I have seen enough in nearly 60 years to not say too quickly that there is only one way to do things. I give the Holy Spirit more credit than that...

Sadly, I also have met religious who fit the description you outlined to a tee. Not many, but some, and some communities have many of those sisters. I know of some like that right now in different communities. Most of them are older sisters, and they remind me of the first women lawyers who made partner... so angry and fighting and over-the-top that people didn't want to be around them! But.... they were the first, and the ones who followed were more thoughtful and generally better lawyers. But those women wouldn't have been given a chance had the others not battered their way to the top.... and did it in the middle of the 60's.

In my experience, the 'radical feminist nun' steriotypical sisters are not the norm in most communities, and they don't match the vast majority of Mercy Sisters I have encountered. Most of the Mercy Sisters are just focused on serving God and God's people. Most of the sisters are much more about getting on with praying and working. They don't have the structure I would want if I were seeking religious life, but many of them are doing wonderful work for God. But you are clear on what your experience was, ACS67, and had I experienced that, it would make me feel pretty strongly on the subject, too.

But in my experience, most of the elderly religious I have met are women of great courage who have burned themselves out for God for the last 50 and 60 years serving God and His people. I cannot imagine what they have gone through. When they entered, the world -- and religous life -- was VERY different! Some sisters entered because they felt a mystical call to be Jesus' Bride... or to live a life of radical service to God... but there were many who just drifted into religious life for less than perfect reasons, and they often went in in huge groups, everyone just was told exactly what to do and not to question anything. That made it less likely that someone who didn't have a vocation would be weeded out. I think sometimes that some of the stereotypes of 'grumpy old nuns' are those people who entered who really didn't have the vocations in the first place.... and those stereotypes were around long before the changes in the 60's....

What those who entered in 1960 didn't know was that their quiet world was about to explode. Think about it. A sister who is celebrating her 50th jubilee this year would have made her vows in 1962. John Kennedy had just been elected president. It was razzle dazzle to be Catholic, and most families were large, and thought it a blessing if a son or daughter wanted to be a religious. Those sisters would have taken their vows just at the time the Vatican Council was about to start. That new Sister would have been formed in the traditional structure, and professed believing that would be her life forever... .and then within a year or two, she would have seen every structure she had grown to trust -- Church, religious life, the world outside the convent... disintigrate before her eyes. I can't imagine navigating the changes in Religious Life in the maelstrom that was the last part of the 60's!

I was in grammar and high school during that period. I watched the sisters struggle to teach us while implementing the changes they were being asked to do. I watched a lot of them choose to leave because they just didn't want to do the changes, or because what they had thought would be a safe vocation had now gone out the window... or because they grew frustrated at the infighting in the communities (somewhat like what is going on in this thread... good people with strong opinions). Part of it was just the crazy decades that were the '60s and '70s. EVERYTHING was being tossed out - not just in religious life.

I think many if not most of the sisters who stayed in religious life did the best they could. They were strong; they prayed, and taught and nursed and did all the things their older Sisters had done... but without the stability and support of numbers. They tried to adapt religious life they way they believed they were being told to adapt it.... and to live lives of prayerful service to God and others. And a lot of them did exactly that. Most of them never made headlines... they were the ones in the trenches, doing the work. And the changes they had to make over the last 30 years... and the shrinking numbers and shrinking ministries.... and the increasing finger pointing and lack of respect... it would break anyone's heart. A lot like soldiers leaving Vietnam or Iraq... not sure if they have been able to do the positive changes they dreamed of doing, they continued to do their jobs. They stayed on the line. They stayed and worked hard for God.

That's why even though I didn't have the vocation, I have immense respect for the sisters who stayed, including those who chose NOT to retain the habit and made radical choices regarding habits and lifestyle -- because I believe that mostly they ALSO listened to the Spirit and tried to serve God well.

And THAT kind of radical listening happens over and over and over in our Church. St. Francis heard God speak radically, and he was pretty scandalous in his time. Mother Teresa heard something different... and she followed what God wanted very radically... including taking off her religious habit and adopting the dress of the poorest in India. She radically looked at the style of prayer and lifestyle her sisters would need to do the work that God was calling them to do ... and she did it. We now see her sister dress as a very recognizable religious habit, but I am not sure that is how it was seen at first.... if someone knows better, correct me. The Daughters of Charity wore the clothes of the peasants near Paris... until Rome TOLD them to modify it in 1963. ALL the communities were told to adapt their habits and lifestyles...and most sisters tried to do just that. The choice to change to the modified habit (or in some communities, to adopt a community symbol) was VERY hard for the old sisters... but they did so in obedience. They understood the request and it made sense; better to spend the time that went into maintaining the traditional habit into service of the Poor. Mother Teresa would have agreed.

In case you wonder, I also have immense respect for the sisters retain the habit and who made only minor changes to their habits. It makes sense to me that they would get the numbers, because in some ways it is an EASIER vocation to join one of those communities--because you know what you are getting into, and because there is a lot of praise for those sisters. I do sometimes wonder if we will be wondering why they did what they did in 50 years time.... only God knows.

But I think there really is room for both! And above all, there is room for us to be respectful and prayeful for all who have given their lives to God.

[AnneLine]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' timestamp='1335300542' post='2422836']
To bring this around to a more positive note, let's think of things to be grateful about in this situation. The sisters all have a place to go and live. They will be able to continue live out their vocation until death. There is hope for the building. All things ebb and flow. This women have given and will continue to give a wonderful gift to the Church and the world. Though they may no longer live in the motherhouse, they gave many years of service and worship in this building. God will make all things right. Prayers for the sisters and hope that the beautiful motherhouse will continue to house and support God's work, even if we may not see it in this life.
[/quote]

Thank you for this. There IS much to be grateful for, even as there is much loss. Perhaps one of the communities people have listed will have the large amount of money it will take to bring the Motherhouse to code... perhaps it will one day be the motherhouse for another generation of sisters. I will hope and pray that all might grow closer to God through this....

I also love your vision that perhaps we will not live to see the fulfillment of our dreams... but we can pray and work for God just as religious have done throughout the centuries, trusting that we are planting seeds that will be harvested by those who will come after us.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1335295458' post='2422807']
My heart is saddened to see the callousness with which this situation is being treated. Can we leave the politics aside and just say that it is sad that these women are losing their home? Can we say that we will pray for their hearts to heal? Can we say that we are sorry that this has happened to them? Can we say that in our love for Christ, our love for them calls us to empathize with losing what you care about? How sad that something like this must be transformed into an argument and an ideological showdown and even worse as an opportunity to throw out those women like trash and replace them with something new and shiny. God never relates to us in this way - or all of us would already be in the garbage.

I truly hope that God does not speak to your souls the way you have spoken about these women without knowing them, without speaking to them, without working with them. I hope when you are sad and in pain He comforts you, gives you His love, and holds you close to His heart. I hope he speaks words of tenderness and love to you even if you have brought your pain upon yourself. I hope that in your trials, which you will have, He stands by you and carries you, holds you, and loves you through them. I hope you hear words of mercy at the revelation of your shortcomings and not cries of victory.

Do you think that if one of those sisters stumbled upon this website and this thread that your words would warm her heart to "come back" to the Church? Do you think she would find in your words the words of God calling her to himself? Do you think she would read them and think of the wisdom contained in them? Do you think she would be able to exclaim "finally I have found the truth for which I have been seeking and yearning!" Do you think your words would carry with them the joy of the Holy Spirit that comes even in realizing one has sinned or done something wrong?

What is your intention in everything you have written? Has it been to encourage holiness? to promote charity and love? to build up the Kingdom of God?

I have to say after the past few days of different topics about sisters that I am not sure that I can any longer support this website or continue to visit here and still obey my conscience and keep peace in my heart. Please try to remember that you know relatively nothing about religious life compared with those who have lived it - it's humility and self-knowledge to acknowledge this. There are many things in religious life that you can't understand until you are there. There are many things in community that don't make sense until you live it. There are many things I wish to say but I feel they will be futile and only cause more of a disturbance so I will keep them to myself and I will pray for you all - for softer hearts, for gentleness, for compassion, for peace, for reliance on Divine Providence and not on man made excuses or reasons for our troubles.
[/quote]Sister, kindly do not let the remarks of one poster drive you away, you are needed, necessary and a blessing. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" applies here, as does the forgiving 70 x 7.

[ACS67]

Oh for crying out loud Sister Marie! What an emotional tirade. No one was directing this at you. Good grief.

Don't worry about "leaving" Sister Marie. I'm a :"lurker" for a reason....and now I'm absent for a reason.

Pax et bonum.

[Winchester]

Nuns sure do whine a lot.

[Lil Red]

why is it wrong to acknowledge that some orders aren't orthodox to the Church? (and i'm still failing to see where anyone is attacking sisters personally, but "attacking" their attitudes towards the Church)

[Winchester]

Don't they take a vow of not posting on the internets?