Starting An Association Of The Faithful

[nikita92]

Gemma, I read about your proposed Betty orders. The more I read, the more excited and hopeful I became!! They all sound wonderful!!!!!!(I feel very drawn to Saint Jude especially) It can be really disheartening to constantly come across communities who say "fiat" to younger women only! Those very few that actually do consider mature women....offer modified habits or none at all, with the exception of a pin or cross necklace etc. From what I have read thus far...The majority of young discerners, are wanting to wear a full habit. Why should that be any different for us older women??? While researching and coming to know about all the different communities and their locations across the US...The midwest, South and Eastcoast is richly abundant with communities. Outside of California..Washington state on the other hand is not. This state is in need of a contemplative, full habited, Betty Carmel! (Which excludes Saint Joseph's in Shoreline for which they do not except belated/mature discerners) If I could start over...I would pioneer and laydown roots and ask Melinda Gates to be a donor/benefactor. As it stands now...I will continue on and pray that your Betty Carmels come to fruitation Gemma! Blessings to you as well!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='nikita92' timestamp='1352587720' post='2507883']
Gemma, I read about your proposed Betty orders. The more I read, the more excited and hopeful I became!! They all sound wonderful!!!!!!(I feel very drawn to Saint Jude especially) It can be really disheartening to constantly come across communities who say "fiat" to younger women only! Those very few that actually do consider mature women....offer modified habits or none at all, with the exception of a pin or cross necklace etc. From what I have read thus far...The majority of young discerners, are wanting to wear a full habit. Why should that be any different for us older women??? While researching and coming to know about all the different communities and their locations across the US...The midwest, South and Eastcoast is richly abundant with communities. Outside of California..Washington state on the other hand is not. This state is in need of a contemplative, full habited, Betty Carmel! (Which excludes Saint Joseph's in Shoreline for which they do not except belated/mature discerners) If I could start over...I would pioneer and laydown roots and ask Melinda Gates to be a donor/benefactor. As it stands now...I will continue on and pray that your Betty Carmels come to fruitation Gemma! Blessings to you as well!
[/quote]

nikita - I don't know how old you are but have you actually spoken with Mother Maria at St Joseph's in Shoreline? When I contacted her about a vocation she was very open to discussing it with me and sent me her phone number and wanted to arrange an interview. I didn't follow up (except to thank her) because right then I was offered a trip to England and things turned out differently, but she didn't seem to find my age a problem and I am 60. It may be that age isn't her only concern in your case, but of course I don't know your situation.

Maybe you should give her a call and talk about it, or even start with an email. I find that if you focus too much on your age, so do others, but it you focus more on your calling from God, than this can help overcome the obstacles of age.

Just an idea.

[Gemma]

[quote name='nikita92' timestamp='1352587720' post='2507883']
Gemma, I read about your proposed Betty orders. The more I read, the more excited and hopeful I became!! They all sound wonderful!!!!!!(I feel very drawn to Saint Jude especially) It can be really disheartening to constantly come across communities who say "fiat" to younger women only! Those very few that actually do consider mature women....offer modified habits or none at all, with the exception of a pin or cross necklace etc. From what I have read thus far...The majority of young discerners, are wanting to wear a full habit. Why should that be any different for us older women??? While researching and coming to know about all the different communities and their locations across the US...The midwest, South and Eastcoast is richly abundant with communities. Outside of California..Washington state on the other hand is not. This state is in need of a contemplative, full habited, Betty Carmel! (Which excludes Saint Joseph's in Shoreline for which they do not except belated/mature discerners) If I could start over...I would pioneer and laydown roots and ask Melinda Gates to be a donor/benefactor. As it stands now...I will continue on and pray that your Betty Carmels come to fruitation Gemma! Blessings to you as well!
[/quote]

I know of another discerner in WA state. If you wish, you can email me directly if you want me to ask if she would like to make contact.

The St Jude charism could be lived as a hermit with the Carmelite rule. I should not have designated a rule for it. I leave such open for the Spirit to speak to the discerner.

Imagine that--a green Carmelite!

Blessings,
Gemma

[nikita92]

Lol That would be interesting indeed! Right after I found out that I had a monastery (practically in my back yard) I did some research on them...(St Josephs) and was pleasantly suprised that the public is invited to share in Vespers with the sisters (on a designated day of the week) so right after I got off from work (in Seattle) I drove to their monastery. (Its actually not to far out of my way when I head home) Besides feeling really excited (and alittle uncomfortable cause I was in uniform)..it happened to be the feast day of the Assumption of Mary! I didnt know what to expect or what I was to do....there happened to be one other person in the chapel so he went over to the grill and waited for the sisters to enter their side. A sister gave him a booklet for both of us. We tried to follow along with them.( I had a hard time hearing them) It was so peaceful and beautiful. Can you beleive that we were the only 2 people there?! They were so cute sneaking peeks at us..as I was with them. Shortly after that day...my car went on the fritz and I havent been back since. I would love to give you my information to pass along. I dont have anyone to talk to....My discernment has been put on hold because of my ACL surgery in Sept. I would love to be able to talk with another discerner in my age group. Blessings to you both!!

[Gemma]

[quote name='nikita92' timestamp='1352691036' post='2508416']
Lol That would be interesting indeed! Right after I found out that I had a monastery (practically in my back yard) I did some research on them...(St Josephs) and was pleasantly suprised that the public is invited to share in Vespers with the sisters (on a designated day of the week) so right after I got off from work (in Seattle) I drove to their monastery. (Its actually not to far out of my way when I head home) Besides feeling really excited (and alittle uncomfortable cause I was in uniform)..it happened to be the feast day of the Assumption of Mary! I didnt know what to expect or what I was to do....there happened to be one other person in the chapel so he went over to the grill and waited for the sisters to enter their side. A sister gave him a booklet for both of us. We tried to follow along with them.( I had a hard time hearing them) It was so peaceful and beautiful. Can you beleive that we were the only 2 people there?! They were so cute sneaking peeks at us..as I was with them. Shortly after that day...my car went on the fritz and I havent been back since. I would love to give you my information to pass along. I dont have anyone to talk to....My discernment has been put on hold because of my ACL surgery in Sept. I would love to be able to talk with another discerner in my age group. Blessings to you both!!
[/quote]

She's on the other side of the state. I have not been able to get ahold of her email.

We have closed vocational listservs available, if you're interested. We have them on our site: http://cloisters.tripod.com/

Blessings,
Gemma

[Sister_Laurel]

It's somewhere in canon law. When I first talked to a bishop about our charisms--back in 1988 or thereabouts--those were the seven things he asked me about. I didn't have many answers for him because I didn't know about them.

Then when I did contact a canonist, they gave me the same list. Fr Gambari discusses them as well. If you email the Institute on Religious Life, they have a set of guidelines which show the different requirements between a religious institute; society of apostolic life; and secular institute.

Our Fullerton Society offers support from the conception of the charism to the point at which the Guidelines pick up. I call it the groundwork stage myself. There may be another term that I don't know about at the moment.

I would go looking through canon law for it, but I am presently typing this and cooking supper!

Blessings,
Gemma

 

Gemma, you have posted this on Cloister Outreach and the simple fact is it does NOT exist in Canon Law. (If your conversation took place in 1988 then it would have been referring to the 1983 Code, correct?) These seven elements are NOT listed in the guidelines on Associations of the Faithful either. Since an Association of the Faithful may NEVER become a religious institute (or even desire it) and since permission to wear religious garb is given (OR NOT!) only by the local Bishop when a group is is showing signs of growing sufficiently to eventually be approved as a public association it makes no sense that this be an initial requirement.

 

In any case I have also spoken with canonists as a result of what you have written in various places and they have never heard of these. I also had someone email me with a question perhaps a year or two ago about this and living as a hermit; she or he (I can't remember which) had apparently been mislead to believe s/he needed these things BEFORE approaching his/her diocese and/or Bishop to be considered for admission to profession as a diocesan hermit. There are certainly expectations of those approaching their dioceses in this way, but these are not among them!! You are doing no one a service in handing on this kind of information as normative. It is not.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[AccountDeleted]

Sr Laurel - thank you as always for correcting any misinformation on this forum. It is very important that young women reading these threads not get confused about what it canonically correct and what is not, however well meaning the advice may be.

 

Having investigated options about starting a new community myself (in Australia), I was most gratified and humbled that I was able to direct my initial enquiries through the Vicar for Religious instead of trying to find out these things from well-meaning but misinformed people online. The Vicar was wonderful in asking for the input of the diocesan canon lawyer to provide guidance in the requirements necessary for a 'start-up' community and also in keeping the Bishop informed of my interest. And her information was in line with what you have posted. Also, she did not think that simply referring to Father Gambari's book alone would be sufficient guidance for one to start any new community or association. Having read his book, I also noticed that he worked in the Congregation for Religious life from 1946-1983 which was before the current code of canon law so wonder if perhaps this book shouldn't be quietly retired (or updated by canon lawyers). The VR also said that one should always engage the guidance of those in the diocese who are appointed and trained to handle these enquiries, as they have access to canon lawyers as well as the ear of the Bishop. This is especially important so as not to confuse others with the idea of somehow being 'approved' or 'legitimate' in some way before approval has actually been granted to a new community. It is a very sensitive topic but as people's souls are involved, it is a great responsiblity not to mislead others even accidentally.

 

 

Please continue to help everyone here in these matters. Your input is invaluable.

[Sister_Laurel]

The negative publicity spoken of was in 2010. There had been a miscommunication with the canonist, as has been explained before. "Not known in this diocese"--when was that written? 2010?

I have spoken with the Chancellor by phone since 2010.

All of the negative publicity was taking place when I was seriously ill and grieving the death of the last parent. Is that charitable?

I have sent His Excellency yearly reports. I have also made priest recommendations. I received an email back from the Chancery, giving me the diocesan contact name for these priests. In the yearly reports I sign with both my real name and my internet moniker.

When I spoke with the Chancellor, he said he had spoken with someone regarding me and he said that he thought I was being responsible with this vocational work. He was very calm about everything.

If you procure a copy of the IRL guidelines, they will say that emerging charisms should get IN WRITING from the canonist exactly what that canonist will do for the charism. Being jettisoned by a canonist happens all the time, as my SD can assure you. My SD says live the life. Bishops can't approve what is not lived. That's the whole point.

I forgot to say that I had a 2-4 hour face-to-face meeting with the canonist at a local Catholic facility. I never spoke to her on the phone, and I have extensive email correspondence from her. We would spend 4 hours a day emailing. It was very time-consuming.

Blessings,
Gemma

 

Dear Gemma,

     let me be clear for all the readers here that I was the one who wrote the blog piece that blew the whistle on your claims to be supported by your Bishop and to be supported "every step ofr the way" by a hermit canonist. Two of us contacted your chancery after numerous posts by you saying, "If you question what I am saying, call and ask!" We called, twice, and asked. The first time we spoke with the Vicar General. You and your projects were unknown to the diocese. A month later one of us spoke with the canonist (whose rep as a canonist was in danger because of what she was supposedly suggesting re eremitical life). She explained she had spoken to you about your own vocation, but NOT about CO or the eremitical expression. She then broke off contact with you. I posted about both of those conversations and the simple fact that your claims were verifiably untrue. I also promised to update my blog post if anything factual changed and I was made aware of it. That never happened.

 

As for what is charitable or not let's think about this a minute. It is NOT charitable to mislead people into following fake (er, "proposed") vocational paths on the assurance that a canonist is directing things "every step of the way". It is not charitable to a canonist who is also a hermit to make ridiculous comments about eremitcal life and canon 603 which are then connected to her. She has a professional reputation and this kind of thing can really hurt it. It is not charitable to pretend expertise in vocations you don't have simply because you have imagined an unnumbered bunch of so-called charisms which never see the light of day. It is not charitable to accuse me (et al) of defamation or to suggest we caused the failure of your projects because I and others actually took you at your word and contacted your diocese.

 

Regarding your annual report the Bishop of the Diocese of Charlotte, I have a couple of questions. 1) Did he ask you to send these or do you simply stick them in the mail hoping someone actually reads them? 2) Do you also meet with him about them and did you meet with him (or a delegate)  to discuss the practice of annual reports before sending any at all? Remember in 2010, no one in the diocese but the canonist knew you or Cloisters Outreach until contacted by the person I mentioned above. Annual reports may mean 1 or 2 you have simply sent in on your own initiative. 3) Beyond the phone call with the VG you report (which essentially verifies he believes you have been acting in good faith --- something no one has questioned), have you actually met with him about your project? Finally, if someone contacted the Diocese of Charlotte at this point, would they verify your story both the explicit story and the things you imply? Would the canonist now tell us that you and she emailed for many hours daily??? Certainly that is not the story we heard two years ago.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[Sister_Laurel]

Sr Laurel - thank you as always for correcting any misinformation on this forum. It is very important that young women reading these threads not get confused about what it canonically correct and what is not, however well meaning the advice may be.

 

Having investigated options about starting a new community myself (in Australia), I was most gratified and humbled that I was able to direct my initial enquiries through the Vicar for Religious instead of trying to find out these things from well-meaning but misinformed people online. The Vicar was wonderful in asking for the input of the diocesan canon lawyer to provide guidance in the requirements necessary for a 'start-up' community and also in keeping the Bishop informed of my interest. And her information was in line with what you have posted. Also, she did not think that simply referring to Father Gambari's book alone would be sufficient guidance for one to start any new community or association. Having read his book, I also noticed that he worked in the Congregation for Religious life from 1946-1983 which was before the current code of canon law so wonder if perhaps this book shouldn't be quietly retired (or updated by canon lawyers). The VR also said that one should always engage the guidance of those in the diocese who are appointed and trained to handle these enquiries, as they have access to canon lawyers as well as the ear of the Bishop. This is especially important so as not to confuse others with the idea of somehow being 'approved' or 'legitimate' in some way before approval has actually been granted to a new community. It is a very sensitive topic but as people's souls are involved, it is a great responsiblity not to mislead others even accidentally.

 

 

Please continue to help everyone here in these matters. Your input is invaluable.

 

Thanks for your comments. Folks should ALWAYS go ahead and contact their dioceses regarding vocations. Several people may be helpful including Vicars for Religious Life (or Consecrated Life) and Vocation Directors. The diocese will usually check things out canonically themselves, either in-house or out, and communicate the findings to those directly concerned. Regarding eremitical vocations people should be aware that canon 603 is focused on solitary eremitical vocations (though the Sacred Congregation or CICLSAL has allowed Lauras); dioceses will generally want people to have lived solitude for some time before allowing them to enter a serious process of mutual discernment leading to public profession. (Occasions where this was not done have not always worked out and that leads dioceses to be more hesitant to profess ANYONE under canon 603. Thus dioceses are being more cautious whith such vocations today). This process of formal and mutual discernment is between the diocese and the candidate themselves. There need not be ANY third party involved and such involvement can even be detrimental.

 

For instance, a diocese will want to know the person is truly discerning a LIFE vocation as a solitary hermit, not using canon 603 as a stopgap to something else --- as so much of what Cloisters Outreach's projects seem to involve. My own concern with what CO posts mainly has to do with a misuse of canon 603 and ignorance about its history, charism, and focus. A few years ago a CO member wrote that they "had decided to go the hermit route because we were not yet ready for cenobitical life." This appears to me to be the preferred way CO operates today: if there are not enough folks to start a proposed community the project is turned into an eremitical one UNTIL. . .. Canon 603 is not meant to be used in this way. At a time when our world cries out for the redemption of isolation into true solitude (think of all the people who fall into this category!!) and when silence, much less the silence of solitude, is virtually unknown but is seriously needed as a charism of the Holy Spirit lived out by diocesan and other hermits, the use of the canon for stopgap "vocations" is destructive.

 

Another significant and related point in Canon 603 vocations is that the person must write her own Plan or Rule. One of the reasons for a significant period in solitude before approaching a diocese for admission to profession is that such a period give the needed expertise to write such a document. Note well, the diocesan hermit does NOT simply adopt the Rule someone else has written, especially when that person has never lived as a hermit. It is up to the candidate to discover the shape her eremitical life must have in today's world. This means focusing on the essentials, not the externals of the life and discovering what the life has to say to folks in the contemporary world. THAT is how authentic charisms come to be; they ALWAYS originate in the intersection between a lived eremitical (religious, lay, etc) life and the context in which that life is lived and to which it speaks. They are NEVER simply dreamed up in the abstract. In the situation I am describing there is a dialectical relationship between all these elements and the charism is the gift that is refined in the fire of the tensions and interactions involved.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[AccountDeleted]

Thanks for your comments. Folks should ALWAYS go ahead and contact their dioceses regarding vocations. Several people may be helpful including Vicars for Religious Life (or Consecrated Life) and Vocation Directors. The diocese will usually check things out canonically themselves, either in-house or out, and communicate the findings to those directly concerned. Regarding eremitical vocations people should be aware that canon 603 is focused on solitary eremitical vocations (though the Sacred Congregation or CICLSAL has allowed Lauras); dioceses will generally want people to have lived solitude for some time before allowing them to enter a serious process of mutual discernment leading to public profession. (Occasions where this was not done have not always worked out and that leads dioceses to be more hesitant to profess ANYONE under canon 603. Thus dioceses are being more cautious whith such vocations today). This process of formal and mutual discernment is between the diocese and the candidate themselves. There need not be ANY third party involved and such involvement can even be detrimental.

 

For instance, a diocese will want to know the person is truly discerning a LIFE vocation as a solitary hermit, not using canon 603 as a stopgap to something else --- as so much of what Cloisters Outreach's projects seem to involve. My own concern with what CO posts mainly has to do with a misuse of canon 603 and ignorance about its history, charism, and focus. A few years ago a CO member wrote that they "had decided to go the hermit route because we were not yet ready for cenobitical life." This appears to me to be the preferred way CO operates today: if there are not enough folks to start a proposed community the project is turned into an eremitical one UNTIL. . .. Canon 603 is not meant to be used in this way. At a time when our world cries out for the redemption of isolation into true solitude (think of all the people who fall into this category!!) and when silence, much less the silence of solitude, is virtually unknown but is seriously needed as a charism of the Holy Spirit lived out by diocesan and other hermits, the use of the canon for stopgap "vocations" is destructive.

 

Another significant and related point in Canon 603 vocations is that the person must write her own Plan or Rule. One of the reasons for a significant period in solitude before approaching a diocese for admission to profession is that such a period give the needed expertise to write such a document. Note well, the diocesan hermit does NOT simply adopt the Rule someone else has written, especially when that person has never lived as a hermit. It is up to the candidate to discover the shape her eremitical life must have in today's world. This means focusing on the essentials, not the externals of the life and discovering what the life has to say to folks in the contemporary world. THAT is how authentic charisms come to be; they ALWAYS originate in the intersection between a lived eremitical (religious, lay, etc) life and the context in which that life is lived and to which it speaks. They are NEVER simply dreamed up in the abstract. In the situation I am describing there is a dialectical relationship between all these elements and the charism is the gift that is refined in the fire of the tensions and interactions involved.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

Wonderfully put. I lived with the Hermits of Bethlem in New Jersey for a couple of months but decided that the laura lifestyle wasn't for me. When I was living as a hermit in the Australian bush, I did meet up with the Bishop there and mentioned the idea of becoming a dicoesan hermit to him. He told me to live the life for at least a year before I even came to discuss it with him again, for all of the reasons that you have stated. He was wonderful but as you point out, the life isn't what everyone thinks it is, and it is a vocation in its own right, not a stepping stone to community life. I can't see how anyone could even consider doing it without at least speaking first to their Bishop (or other diocesan official responsible for vocations) since the vows are made to the Church through the Bishop. Your own experiences on your blog make all of this abundantly clear.

 

After 8 months of living hermit life I knew that what I really wanted was to live and pray in community again, and not to continue on my own. I was glad that my Bishop hadn't allowed me to try to rush into anything. And once I realised that I did not have a hermit vocation, I took time with my spiritual director to even decide if I should continue discerning religious life. There are no short cuts to God, even for older vocations. The whole online community thing causes me great concern because it does seem so much like a virtual reality with a promise of shortcuts or alternatives and I worry that it will confuse very sincere discerners into thinking it is real. There is no substitute for 'real life' discernment, effort and perseverence.

 

I highly recommend that everyone on VS read your blog and also that of Therese Ivers, a canon lawyer and consecrated virgin who also blogs and answers questions about canon law. Solid, factual information from consecrated women who know what they are talking about! Thank you both.

[Sister_Laurel]

Dear Gemma,

     let me be clear for all the readers here that I was the one who wrote the blog piece that blew the whistle on your claims to be supported by your Bishop and to be supported "every step ofr the way" by a hermit canonist. Two of us contacted your chancery after numerous posts by you saying, "If you question what I am saying, call and ask!" We called, twice, and asked. The first time we spoke with the Vicar General. You and your projects were unknown to the diocese. A month later one of us spoke with the canonist (whose rep as a canonist was in danger because of what she was supposedly suggesting re eremitical life). She explained she had spoken to you about your own vocation, but NOT about CO or the eremitical expression. She then broke off contact with you. I posted about both of those conversations and the simple fact that your claims were verifiably untrue. I also promised to update my blog post if anything factual changed and I was made aware of it. That never happened.

 

As for what is charitable or not let's think about this a minute. It is NOT charitable to mislead people into following fake (er, "proposed") vocational paths on the assurance that a canonist is directing things "every step of the way". It is not charitable to a canonist who is also a hermit to make ridiculous comments about eremitcal life and canon 603 which are then connected to her. She has a professional reputation and this kind of thing can really hurt it. It is not charitable to pretend expertise in vocations you don't have simply because you have imagined an unnumbered bunch of so-called charisms which never see the light of day. It is not charitable to accuse me (et al) of defamation or to suggest we caused the failure of your projects because I and others actually took you at your word and contacted your diocese.

 

Regarding your annual report the Bishop of the Diocese of Charlotte, I have a couple of questions. 1) Did he ask you to send these or do you simply stick them in the mail hoping someone actually reads them? 2) Do you also meet with him about them and did you meet with him (or a delegate)  to discuss the practice of annual reports before sending any at all? Remember in 2010, no one in the diocese but the canonist knew you or Cloisters Outreach until contacted by the person I mentioned above. Annual reports may mean 1 or 2 you have simply sent in on your own initiative. 3) Beyond the phone call with the VG you report (which essentially verifies he believes you have been acting in good faith --- something no one has questioned), have you actually met with him about your project? Finally, if someone contacted the Diocese of Charlotte at this point, would they verify your story both the explicit story and the things you imply? Would the canonist now tell us that you and she emailed for many hours daily??? Certainly that is not the story we heard two years ago.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

[[Annual reports may mean 1 or 2 you have simply sent in on your own initiative.]]

 

Should have read: Annual reports may mean 1) you are doing exactly what the Bishop (or his delegate) has asked you to do, or 2) you have simply sent [these] in on your own initiative. (N.B., Either way you can report on the internet that you are sending in annual reports. The meaning of the two acts is rather different, I am sure you would agree.)

 

Sorry for the bad editing.

[Sister_Laurel]

Wonderfully put. I lived with the Hermits of Bethlem in New Jersey for a couple of months but decided that the laura lifestyle wasn't for me. When I was living as a hermit in the Australian bush, I did meet up with the Bishop there and mentioned the idea of becoming a dicoesan hermit to him. He told me to live the life for at least a year before I even came to discuss it with him again, for all of the reasons that you have stated. He was wonderful but as you point out, the life isn't what everyone thinks it is, and it is a vocation in its own right, not a stepping stone to community life. I can't see how anyone could even consider doing it without at least speaking first to their Bishop (or other diocesan official responsible for vocations) since the vows are made to the Church through the Bishop. Your own experiences on your blog make all of this abundantly clear.

 

After 8 months of living hermit life I knew that what I really wanted was to live and pray in community again, and not to continue on my own. I was glad that my Bishop hadn't allowed me to try to rush into anything. And once I realised that I did not have a hermit vocation, I took time with my spiritual director to even decide if I should continue discerning religious life. There are no short cuts to God, even for older vocations. The whole online community thing causes me great concern because it does seem so much like a virtual reality with a promise of shortcuts or alternatives and I worry that it will confuse very sincere discerners into thinking it is real. There is no substitute for 'real life' discernment, effort and perseverence.

 

I highly recommend that everyone on VS read your blog and also that of Therese Ivers, a canon lawyer and consecrated virgin who also blogs and answers questions about canon law. Solid, factual information from consecrated women who know what they are talking about! Thank you both.

 

Your perspective on this is particularly valuable I think. Most Bishops will ask for at least two years before approaching the diocese but they do not require the "seven pillars" etc. --- just substantial experience of living a solitary life oriented toward the silence of solitude and the other central elements of Canon 603. Most will also require at least five years of lay eremitical life before admitting to temporary vows and this under competent spiritual direction. (My own Bishop --- now Archbishop --- was very clear about that, for instance.)

 

As I have written on my blog the biggest mistake people make about eremitical life is thinking it is simply living a relatively pious life alone. NOT TRUE! Lots of people live this way but very very few of them live eremitical lives.  It is absolutely NOT a STOPGAP vocation to be lived while someone decides where to set up their convent or waits for others to join in whatever project is REALLY at hand. Solitude CAN be a transitional vocation, but in that case we are not speaking of Canon 603 vocations.

 

I also recommend Therese Ivers' Do I have a Vocation? Website. Questions can be asked, and, at least with regard to Canon 603 I think Therese and I are on the same page --- she from the perspective of canon law and me from living the life and that of systematic theology (my field by education). By the way, the blog article I referenced earlier is listed on my blog under labels: cf Cloisters Outreach.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[AccountDeleted]

Your perspective on this is particularly valuable I think. Most Bishops will ask for at least two years before approaching the diocese but they do not require the "seven pillars" etc. --- just substantial experience of living a solitary life oriented toward the silence of solitude and the other central elements of Canon 603. Most will also require at least five years of lay eremitical life before admitting to temporary vows and this under competent spiritual direction. (My own Bishop --- now Archbishop --- was very clear about that, for instance.)

 

As I have written on my blog the biggest mistake people make about eremitical life is thinking it is simply living a relatively pious life alone. NOT TRUE! Lots of people live this way but very very few of them live eremitical lives.  It is absolutely NOT a STOPGAP vocation to be lived while someone decides where to set up their convent or waits for others to join in whatever project is REALLY at hand. Solitude CAN be a transitional vocation, but in that case we are not speaking of Canon 603 vocations.

 

I also recommend Therese Ivers' Do I have a Vocation? Website. Questions can be asked, and, at least with regard to Canon 603 I think Therese and I are on the same page --- she from the perspective of canon law and me from living the life and that of systematic theology (my field by education). By the way, the blog article I referenced earlier is listed on my blog under labels: cf Cloisters Outreach.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

I would prop this if we still had props. Thank you.

[Gemma]

The "Seven Pillars" have always been handed to me by anyone I have spoken to.  First, the bishop, then the canonist, then my Dominican SD who has foundational experience.  They make perfectly good sense, and if the canonists have never heard of them, I can see why new charisms have such a hard time getting started.  Founders are encouraged to live the life in private as a Personal Prayer Rule first.  Laity who know the founder are often attracted to what they're doing.  They become a lay association, and the founder has their "third order."  The adherents join the third order, and further discernment is done regarding a community.  The group has to prove that they're serious about what they're doing before the clergy and religious will take them seriously.

 

I don't see why the "Seven Pillars" can't be applied to eremitism as well.  There won't be "persevering members," but the others apply to a certain extent.

 

The yearly reports are part of having a private lay association, at least that was my understanding when I started Cloister Outreach.  I used to send them when we first started, but hubby and babies came along, and I really wasn't doing that much, so I didn't bother to contact the local chancery.  I became involved with vocations in the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph, started the vocations committee at our church, then had to move.  I had even slated a monastic tour for St. Louis with rooms booked at Kendrick Seminary and a bus reserved, but hubby's job situation changed and we moved to NC.  Now the kids are grown, and I've more time to devote to the emerging organizations.  I have sent three substantial yearly reports by both email and snail mail.  The former is more efficient and goes straight to his administrative assistant.

 

Here is a pdf regarding lay associations:  http://www.catholiccanonlaw.com/Associations.pdf

 

Fr. Gambari's book was promoted by the Institute on Religious Life.  They would not promote something that had not been vetted by their own clerical authority.

 

There is really nothing more to say about the issue, at least from my perspective.  What's done is done.  I would prefer to get back to anticipating the arrival of Mary's Holy Baby.

 

Blessings,

Gemma

 

 

[Eowyn]

Your perspective on this is particularly valuable I think. Most Bishops will ask for at least two years before approaching the diocese but they do not require the "seven pillars" etc. --- just substantial experience of living a solitary life oriented toward the silence of solitude and the other central elements of Canon 603. Most will also require at least five years of lay eremitical life before admitting to temporary vows and this under competent spiritual direction. (My own Bishop --- now Archbishop --- was very clear about that, for instance.)

 

As I have written on my blog the biggest mistake people make about eremitical life is thinking it is simply living a relatively pious life alone. NOT TRUE! Lots of people live this way but very very few of them live eremitical lives.  It is absolutely NOT a STOPGAP vocation to be lived while someone decides where to set up their convent or waits for others to join in whatever project is REALLY at hand. Solitude CAN be a transitional vocation, but in that case we are not speaking of Canon 603 vocations.

 

I also recommend Therese Ivers' Do I have a Vocation? Website. Questions can be asked, and, at least with regard to Canon 603 I think Therese and I are on the same page --- she from the perspective of canon law and me from living the life and that of systematic theology (my field by education). By the way, the blog article I referenced earlier is listed on my blog under labels: cf Cloisters Outreach.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

I would prop this if we still had props. Thank you.

 

I would, too - very  good posts.