Community Of Saint John

[TheresaThoma]

All orders have initial teething problems and continue to do so for decades, if not centuries, and the Franciscans are a good example, Founders by their nature tend to be charismatic and assertive so they can motivate and encourage people. This has many blessings, but also obvious risks.

In some ways this teething process never stops happening -  communities just get better at ironing (or excluding) what causes problems for them until they are forced to address it (or die).  New institutes are created in attempts to renew or reform  the ones that have grown stale, staid, corrupted or lax in their religious life and so the wheel turns again. I guess all orders go through their spring, summer, autumn and winters (much like the spiritual path).

I agree that discerner's need to have their eyes wide open when considering new institutes, but also older or established ones. Often the established institutes come with customs and constitutions that may be moving in a direction the discerner may not anticipate and they could find it hard to have a voice amongst those who were formed with ideas that differ to the renewal many of the newer institutes seek to address. This can also be a tough situation to be in and cause internal struggles, and risk a vocation, if not considered early on. 

 

 

This.

 

ALL communities have teething problems. Just look at the Discalced Carmelites. While St Teresa and St John were trying to found their reformed Order, just some of the scandalous things that happened were: St John was imprisoned and beaten, St Teresa was forced to go back and be Prioress of the community she was trying to leave, even though she didn't want to, later she was sent back to her own convent for 5 years and told not to found any more, and because of jealousy and ambition in the community after Teresa's death, the Prioress of Seville and Father Gracian (Teresa's superior at one time and also her spiritual director) were falsely accused of sexual misconduct - the Prioress was removed from office and imprisoned in her convent and Gracian was expelled from the Order. St John was sent into a kind of exile at a remote monastery until he died. Just on the surface, it looks like an Order in complete chaos. And yet, the Carmelites have now been around for 400 years.

 

I have recently read a book from a former nun about a community that was started about 50-60 years ago. On the outside it looks perfect to everyone else, but from what was written, I can see that it is just like every new community - because every community is comprised of human beings, who are fallible and weak. It wasn't a shock to me because I had read a similar one about them by another nun who had left for similar reasons. The thing that makes it hard for communities to change though, is when bad things are swept under the carpet because no one wants to admit or face the truth. Bringing things out into the open gives them a chance to be healed - which is good for everyone involved and good for the Church in the long run, even though it might sting a little when first revealed.

 

Lilllabettt is right though - best to know all the facts about a community in order to make an informed decision and not to romanticize anyone or any community. There is nothing wrong with admiring a community or their founder, as long as one maintains an objective view of things. It is far too easy for any religious community to start assuming the traits of a cult, and that way lies disaster. Discernment means just that - discern.

 

I'm not saying anything about the community of St John - I don't know them. This is a general principle for any discernment - use reason and common sense and not just emotion.

 

Edited to add that the devil will attack new communities - that's why so many saint founders have problems - and that's why obedience to the Church, openness to correction, and humility are required attributes of a founder/ress.

Thank you both of you for this perspective! (I'd prop you if I could!)

[ACS67]

And yet, the Carmelites have now been around for 400 years.

 

Just a slight correction.  The Carmelites have been around for 806 years (they celebrated 800 years in 1207).  The DISCALCED Carmelites have been around for 400 +. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2013 by ACS67

[AccountDeleted]

Just a slight correction.  The Carmelites have been around for 806 years (they celebrated 800 years in 1207).  The DISCALCED Carmelites have been around for 400 +. 

 

I was speaking in particular about the 'new' community of Discalced Carmelites. I thought I made that clear in my post, but if not, yes, I agree, the O Carms are much older. I wasn't talking about their teething problems, although I am sure they had some too. :)

[AccountDeleted]

I agree that discerner's need to have their eyes wide open when considering new institutes, but also older or established ones. Often the established institutes come with customs and constitutions that may be moving in a direction the discerner may not anticipate and they could find it hard to have a voice amongst those who were formed with ideas that differ to the renewal many of the newer institutes seek to address. This can also be a tough situation to be in and cause internal struggles, and risk a vocation, if not considered early on. 

 

 

I missed commenting on this last part of your post. I agree completely. Even with the older, established communities, there are often concerns.

 

Not just conflicts because of differing views of the direction the community should be moving, but simply because communities are full of human beings. In every community there is the potential for jealousy, ambition and thirst for power or authority, vanity, arrogance, pride, and yes, even cruelty. And sometimes in closed environments, the situation can seem much worse than in the world, because there is usually no means of addressing the problems from within and no communication about the problems is allowed.

 

It is when things get to such a point, that the word 'cult' starts to seem appropriate. Cults are not just about strong and charismatic leaders, but also about closed environments where dissent or differing opinions are forbidden by authority and members are required to surrender their individuality. It's too complex and issue to go into here, but there is a vulnerability in every community simply because of our human nature. So yes, discernment of older communities is also necessary.

[PhuturePriest]

In other news, this is the first successful thread I've had in what seems like forever, and plus this conversation is actually interesting, so keep it going! :P

[Benedictus]

I missed commenting on this last part of your post. I agree completely. Even with the older, established communities, there are often concerns.

 

Not just conflicts because of differing views of the direction the community should be moving, but simply because communities are full of human beings. In every community there is the potential for jealousy, ambition and thirst for power or authority, vanity, arrogance, pride, and yes, even cruelty. And sometimes in closed environments, the situation can seem much worse than in the world, because there is usually no means of addressing the problems from within and no communication about the problems is allowed.

 

It is when things get to such a point, that the word 'cult' starts to seem appropriate. Cults are not just about strong and charismatic leaders, but also about closed environments where dissent or differing opinions are forbidden by authority and members are required to surrender their individuality. It's too complex and issue to go into here, but there is a vulnerability in every community simply because of our human nature. So yes, discernment of older communities is also necessary.

Yes totally! It's hoped the internal procedures, approved constitutions and canon law would help mitigate some of these problems but its undeniable some problems will still occur. 
A discerner is in a vulnerable position in many situations - its possible that people are denied to continue formation for unfair reasons (denied access to simple vows or perpetual profession etc) rendering the person at the mercy of charity or family. If they gave up a good rented property and sold many items before taking life vows then they are in a depressing situation all the more. (I guess this is why people shouldn't easily dispose of property before this point but it does happen).

There are also potential problems about internal culture, formation and the level of voice a person can have over a period of years. For example, in some institutes it takes up to ten years before a person can take life vows (such as the Jesuits). This seems like a good strategy to ensure good formation before making a big commitment. But the down side is that a person may find it virtually impossible to raise problems or challenge their peers for a whole decade, for fear they'll be dismissed by superiors. I'm sure there are all institutes that we are all unsuited for, and would probably not last long in. But there is potential for abuse and It's not necessarily always talked about. 

 

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Newness is not determined by the number of professed in an institute or community. They were founded in 1975.  Many popular, tradition-minded communities were founded during that time.  They have flourished rapidly with many vocations. They are a gift to the Church. But many of them are experiencing significant problems.

 

You are right that we all have imperfections. But if an imperfection is serious, it should not be dismissed, just because we all have them.  If your girlfriend has an addiction, for example. She may be a wonderful person, and it is no judgment on her soul or character, but you may or may not be called to be her boyfriend in light of her addiction. 

 

If there is internal division within a community, strong enough that it has become public and required Vatican supervision -- well that is something important to know in the context of discernment.  If  there have been abuse allegations and apostolic visitations, if the matter of a communities charism is unsettled -- discerners must know these things.   Many people continue to follow a call to a troubled community, but if they are to persevere it is best to go in knowing what the difficulties are. Otherwise it can lead to so much heartbreak.

 

They are a wonderful community. With very kind, joyful Sisters. I believe they are strong enough to move past the present problems. But a see-no- evil approach isn't  healthy discernment.

 

Props! Having learned the hard way... go in discerning with eyes WIDE open, seek counsel from someone outside of the community, look for red flags... mercy if I knew then, what I knew now....

 

As for this community specifically. Like others I have heard good and bad, especially with the sisters. The majority of the problems over the last decade have been with the female branch (mainly the contemplatives).... but they have also had some beautiful fruits in their apostalates. They have a heavy emphasis on philosophy in their formation. Their founder was a particularly brilliant man. I am sad to hear of the recent revelation, but I am impressed with how they are handling it. 

[AccountDeleted]

Yes totally! It's hoped the internal procedures, approved constitutions and canon law would help mitigate some of these problems but its undeniable some problems will still occur. 
A discerner is in a vulnerable position in many situations - its possible that people are denied to continue formation for unfair reasons (denied access to simple vows or perpetual profession etc) rendering the person at the mercy of charity or family. If they gave up a good rented property and sold many items before taking life vows then they are in a depressing situation all the more. (I guess this is why people shouldn't easily dispose of property before this point but it does happen).

There are also potential problems about internal culture, formation and the level of voice a person can have over a period of years. For example, in some institutes it takes up to ten years before a person can take life vows (such as the Jesuits). This seems like a good strategy to ensure good formation before making a big commitment. But the down side is that a person may find it virtually impossible to raise problems or challenge their peers for a whole decade, for fear they'll be dismissed by superiors. I'm sure there are all institutes that we are all unsuited for, and would probably not last long in. But there is potential for abuse and It's not necessarily always talked about. 

 

 

 

Don't get me started about formation problems - I will never stop. The whole idea of postulancy gives me the creeps these days because it isn't even mentioned by canon law - it is something that each community determines for themselves. And although the ostensible reason for long postulancies is to make sure the candidate is ready to proceed, what it really does is create a gap between members and non-members and cause a disconnect for the postulant who is neither fish nor fowl - not a member of the community, nor someone living in this world. This should be a whole 'nother thread of course, so I won't go on further here but this issue is a real 'hot button' for me.

 

Forgetting that, there is still a lot of cult-like behavior in cloistered communities, and my first point was to support you in just saying that even well established communities should be discerned carefully as well. But sometimes that can only be done by actually entering and living the life - and that's where a lot of damage can be done.

 

Loving God isn't easy. Worth it, yes, but not easy. :)

[TheresaThoma]

This is going to sound kind of odd but honestly seeing how a community deals with problems and for that matter changes, major and minor can be very helpful to a discerner. In my opinion how the community handles the issues is more important that than issues themselves is more important for a discerner. It is important to know what they issue is and to a certain extent why the issue came to be (but not necessarily all the little nit picky details). However how the community handles the issue can be very telling of how the community functions (were junior members allowed to voice an opinion? Was it ignored for a while? How much was shared about the issue outside of the community? etc).

 

(One thing that struck me is that the prior general has in his main communication about the issues with the founder has repeatedly stated that he didn't not want this to stay/become a "family secret". If you are able to read French the communications from the Prior-General are definitely worth a read.)

[Eowyn]

This is going to sound kind of odd but honestly seeing how a community deals with problems and for that matter changes, major and minor can be very helpful to a discerner. In my opinion how the community handles the issues is more important that than issues themselves is more important for a discerner. It is important to know what they issue is and to a certain extent why the issue came to be (but not necessarily all the little nit picky details). However how the community handles the issue can be very telling of how the community functions (were junior members allowed to voice an opinion? Was it ignored for a while? How much was shared about the issue outside of the community? etc).

 

(One thing that struck me is that the prior general has in his main communication about the issues with the founder has repeatedly stated that he didn't not want this to stay/become a "family secret". If you are able to read French the communications from the Prior-General are definitely worth a read.)

 

That doesn't sound odd at all.. 

[TheresaThoma]

I guess the odd part is that I would almost prefer discerning with a community which has or is experiencing "teething issues" rather than one that hasn't run into an issue yet. I think some people shy away from a community that is experiencing issues but I would consider it a positive. You can see and know how they handle issues rather than entering and then finding out as a novice.

[Eowyn]

I guess the odd part is that I would almost prefer discerning with a community which has or is experiencing "teething issues" rather than one that hasn't run into an issue yet. I think some people shy away from a community that is experiencing issues but I would consider it a positive. You can see and know how they handle issues rather than entering and then finding out as a novice.

 

 

I still don't think that is odd, as long as you know what you are getting into with a new community. It might be something you are called to do. :)

[petitpèlerin]

I was present this spring when the community revealed this difficult situation to their friends and oblates (third order members) in France. I just want to clarify for those who don't read French that there were no allegations of sexual acts, only gestures of an inappropriate nature contrary to chastity (and to protect the privacy of the women, and for other prudential reasons, they are not going to reveal any further details, and it wouldn't serve any good purpose to do so). These incidents occurred during a certain time frame, and then they ceased and never occurred again for the remainder of his life. In other words, it it is perfectly possible that Fr Philippe realized the wrongness of this behavior, corrected it, and died a saint. It's a very painful and difficult thing for the community to accept, but they're accepting it gracefully and still loving him as the father he was to them, while not idealizing him. They've gone public with the information precisely in the belief that it is the right thing to do to deal with the reality the healthiest way possible and grow from it, and that's what I've seen happening.

I don't see it as a problem for the community. During the same week, I heard this news and also learned that I was officially accepted to enter; and come to think of it, it didn't cause me to question whether or not I wanted to join. It doesn't change my belief that the Holy Spirit instrumentalized Fr Philippe to found a community that He willed into existence. If you're familiar with the story, you know that founding this community was not Fr Philippe's idea, it was asked of him and in fact he was reluctant at first.

[petitpèlerin]

This article is from last month; it goes through the crises in the different branches of the community recently:

http://www.dici.org/en/news/france-the-conduct-of-the-community-of-st-johns-founder-denounced/

 

Interesting article. It's truthful but maybe not entirely clear. The contemplative sisters indeed have split, but the splinter group that separated from the community was permanently dissolved by Pope Benedict in the final weeks of his pontificate, and they are not allowed to reform under any name in any diocese in the world; in other words, the Contemplative Sisters of St John are the ones who are in obedience to the Church via their bishop and in union with their brother and sister branches; the others are now a splinter group in dangerous territory (not to imply that all their reasons are necessarily unfounded, just that obedience and unity are primary). Hopefully those sisters will be able to have fruitful dialogue with the Church and the community and will find their way.
 

[TheresaThoma]

Thank you for commenting on all of this for us PetitPelerin!