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i am very sad that these people have no concience. how dont they care thay they are procuring death and supporting unnecessary suffering? woe to all religious leaders who support this barbaric practice. we live in truly sad times when the people who are to care for the little ones, dont. they kill them and eat them.

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We never ate meat until about the 80's when fish became very expensive and people would be offering us meat, especially turkeys. We felt it was more in keeping with poverty to accept the meat and eat

Hi Oremus,   Perhaps a more constructive way to have phrased the question "how would you know? y ou are married and therefore not in religous life." might have bee nsomething along the lines of:  

Ok ... I am locking this thread for the precise reason stated above.  You can discuss an issue, and disagree with people, but there are statements on this thread that are just not good (I don't want t

this is so ridiculous. so you are saying those religious who WOULDNT kill and eat their pet dog out of obedience are selfish? i call it having a conscience.

 

what about the many saints who founded orders which were vegetarian? are those saints selfish?

 

what about penitential vegetarianism , mandatory on fridays in some countries. is that frivolous??

if i was discerning marriage, i would not date someone who expected me to cook meat. there are many vegetarian men out there. why would i date a barbarian whose values are so different to my own.

 

i suppose it is the same for choosing a community.

 

and no. being vegetarian is not more expensive than eating meat. rice and beans is a staple in many developing nations. and i highly doubt orders like the franciscans (founded by St Francis who was, SHOCK HORROR vegetarian!!!) who especially obverve poverty  would observe vegetarianism if it was somehow a luxury.

 

Yes, total obedience is TOTAL obedience.  We must die to self in any vocation.  One can't simply pick and choose the parts of their vocation that they will follow.  So long as it is not a mortal sin, and as far as I am informed, eating a pet dog is not a mortal sin.  Sorry, you can't just do what you will, there are many, many examples of saints struggling with obidence against unfair superiors.  It's part of the vocation.

 

Vegetarianism is not the issue here, it's your railing against communities who won't support the desires of one member over their way of life.  If they practice vegan/vegeterian lifestyle as a part of their order, then purchasing meat or seeking out meat when on a home visit would be disobedience.  It works both ways.

 

I did not, nor will I ever say, that I am horrified at vegetarians.  I eat very little meat.  If you want to get into the historic debate about the expense of meat, the cheapness of fish, etc.  You do know that in New England prisoners rioted because they were fed lobster, right?  Times change.  What is expensive and what is not changes.  What is questionable to eat and what is not changes.  Tin cans are coated with dangerous chemicals, and most bagged beans hear come from questionable countries.  Beans are not *that* viable as a cheap protein source where I live.   

 

Since I don't have the luxary of making a bean farm, I have to go with what I can afford, and for me (and my future spouse) that is a mix of veggies, starches and meat.  Perhaps it's different in other places, but I don't need to buy beans that were sprayed with all sorts of chemicals where young boys and girls were paid 10 cents a month to harvest them.  That's all part of the costs, and to me I think that an animal life is less worthy than slave labor.  Beans that are not harvested under such contions are more expensive.

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i am very sad that these people have no concience. how dont they care thay they are procuring death and supporting unnecessary suffering? woe to all religious leaders who support this barbaric practice. we live in truly sad times when the people who are to care for the little ones, dont. they kill them and eat them.

 

Care for the little ones?  You are aware that Jesus was referring to children, not cows, right?

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Yes, total obedience is TOTAL obedience.  We must die to self in any vocation.  One can't simply pick and choose the parts of their vocation that they will follow.  So long as it is not a mortal sin, and as far as I am informed, eating a pet dog is not a mortal sin.  Sorry, you can't just do what you will, there are many, many examples of saints struggling with obidence against unfair superiors.  It's part of the vocation.

 

Vegetarianism is not the issue here, it's your railing against communities who won't support the desires of one member over their way of life.  If they practice vegan/vegeterian lifestyle as a part of their order, then purchasing meat or seeking out meat when on a home visit would be disobedience.  It works both ways.

 

I did not, nor will I ever say, that I am horrified at vegetarians.  I eat very little meat.  If you want to get into the historic debate about the expense of meat, the cheapness of fish, etc.  You do know that in New England prisoners rioted because they were fed lobster, right?  Times change.  What is expensive and what is not changes.  What is questionable to eat and what is not changes.  Tin cans are coated with dangerous chemicals, and most bagged beans hear come from questionable countries.  Beans are not *that* viable as a cheap protein source where I live.   

 

Since I don't have the luxary of making a bean farm, I have to go with what I can afford, and for me (and my future spouse) that is a mix of veggies, starches and meat.  Perhaps it's different in other places, but I don't need to buy beans that were sprayed with all sorts of chemicals where young boys and girls were paid 10 cents a month to harvest them.  That's all part of the costs, and to me I think that an animal life is less worthy than slave labor.  Beans that are not harvested under such contions are more expensive.

how would you know? you are married and therefore not in religous life.

 

how do you know that you didnt avoid religious life for selfish reasons? you could embrace povery, obedience (which you have said you would oberve to the point of killing) and chastity. but you didnt. and dont say "it is Gods will" because  we all have personal free will to choose to dicern a particular path.

 

if obedience contradicted your conscience to the extent that you would kill and would  you would mindlessly obey? how sad.

 

Care for the little ones?  You are aware that Jesus was referring to children, not cows, right?


 

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

 

 

Oh, how shocking, the CCC suggests we should CARE for aniumals!!! I suppose it is like those SHOCKING saints and WHOLE ORDERS who were vegetarian.

 

not to mention those wallowing in the luxury of penitential vegetarianism!!!

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how would you know? you are married and therefore not in religous life.

 

how do you know that you didnt avoid religious life for selfish reasons? you could embrace povery, obedience (which you have said you would oberve to the point of killing) and chastity. but you didnt. and dont say "it is Gods will" because  we all have personal free will to choose to dicern a particular path.

 

if obedience contradicted your conscience to the extent that you would kill and would  you would mindlessly obey? how sad.

 

 

 

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

 

 

Oh, how shocking, the CCC suggests we should CARE for aniumals!!! I suppose it is like those SHOCKING saints and WHOLE ORDERS who were vegetarian.

 

not to mention those wallowing in the luxury of penitential vegetarianism!!!

 

 

First, I'm not married yet, and second, even if I was, that would be like saying a Priest cannot give advice to married couples.

 

In some respects, it would of been far more selfish of me to not get married.  You see, I have painful, debiliting periods.  If I knew I was going to be a nun and not need my uterous, I'd of had it removed long ago.  Its hard not being able to be up, awake and normal every 5 out of each 28 days.  Sorry.

 

People have free wills to discern what path God is calling them on.  For me, it will be dying to self, and dealing with excruciating pain for the sake of my spouse and future children.  I COULD unilaterally decide that this pain is not worth it and have my feminine parts removed.  As long as I could have sex, I'd still be able to validly marry.  Yet this would mean no children.  However, I am taking my vocation a step further and enduring the pain in order to live out part of my vocation.  It's not "mindless obedience"  even if my spouse told me that I could not remove my uterous.

 

Obedience is obedience.  I know religious who struggle with this, with everything from food to coats to socks.  If I had made such a vow, i would remain obedient to my superior even unto death, never mind eating a pet.  Perhaps it's because I have had good examples of religious who DO so.   I know a young phillipio woman who's persuing a vocation and was told that she must only speak English in the convent even when her mother struggles with English.   She can't properly speak to her mother!!!! Is this hard? YES!  But she does it.  Does it go against her nature to want to comfort her mother?  Yes!  Is this "mindless obedience"?  Nope, she must act in a way that her community prescribes.  Similarly, eating meat is not, nor will ever be, a mortal sin of itself.  However, disobedience can.

 

 

Second, when did I EVER, EVER say we should abuse animals?  I also never ever said that vegeterinsm was shocking or bad?  It works for some communities, but again, they are able to grow their own food, which yes, would mean that raising animals is likely more difficult.  It's not like they are running to the grocer and buying a 5 lb bag of beans.  Ethical growing and how people are treated is a FAR bigger concern of mine than how an animal is.  Still that dosn't mean I go around abusing animals.  I eat only meat that was raised humanely.  I eat only veggies that were farmed humanely.  But if one had to bend, I'd pick eating meat that was harmed over eating veggies grown by child slaves.

 

You have vindetta against orders who are not bending in their beliefs.  I'm stepping out here becuase this, among your other threads, seems to show that you are not to be reasoned with.

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I am not saying those who are not religioius are selfish. i AM saying that there is an element of personal choice and preference in excersising ones free will in discerning the vocaiton. so just as a married person chooses to marry one person and not another, so religious also choose one order and not another.

 

and i think it is entirely legitimate to say that an order which kills and/or eats animals has fundamental incompatibility with many vegetarians. so for those people, they can CHOOSE not to join such order. this would not be disobedient because they are excersicing their free will in discernment.

to balance out the barbarianism entering this thread, let me add some quotes in support of caring for animals.

 

Man must never hurt animals, must never ill-treat them nor torture them physically because they are sensitive creatures. If anyone told me that to achieve my purpose it would be sufficient to kill an ant, I would not do it.
--Pope John XXIII 1958-1963

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Catherine Therese

how would you know? you are married and therefore not in religous life.

 

how do you know that you didnt avoid religious life for selfish reasons? you could embrace povery, obedience (which you have said you would oberve to the point of killing) and chastity. but you didnt. and dont say "it is Gods will" because  we all have personal free will to choose to dicern a particular path.

 

if obedience contradicted your conscience to the extent that you would kill and would  you would mindlessly obey? how sad.

 

 

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.

 

 

Oh, how shocking, the CCC suggests we should CARE for aniumals!!! I suppose it is like those SHOCKING saints and WHOLE ORDERS who were vegetarian.

 

not to mention those wallowing in the luxury of penitential vegetarianism!!!

 

Hi Oremus,

 

Perhaps a more constructive way to have phrased the question "how would you know? y ou are married and therefore not in religous life." might have bee nsomething along the lines of:

 

"I'm interested to know what basis you have for making that claim... I know you're married so I'm guessing its not based on personal experience, but have you maybe read/heard that from someone who is religious?"

 

It IS possible to have real conversations and talk through points of disagreement whilst still keeping things amicable!

I offer this example above as an invitation to consider the tone of what you post here in VS moving forward. 

 

You might notice that several threads about which you have had strong opinions that are at odds with a majority of VS members have been locked or moved in recent times - but I can assure you that the difference in views is NOT the reason the threads were locked. People are given the space here to be either right or wrong in the claims they make and still be given the benefit of the doubt for being well-meaning, so even if you posted something that everyone disagreed with, it wouldn't be grounds for locking the post. What is at issue here is your tone. The tone in VocationStation is always to be guided by charity, by a consideration of "does what I'm about to say genuinely SERVE/BENEFIT the person to whom I'm responding? Is it edifying or is it an attack?" People are a little bit less guarded in their tone in other parts of Phatmass, for example, in OpenMic or Debate Table... perhaps the style of those boards is a more comfortable fit for the kinds of conversations that you seem to want to pursue?

 

 

Finally, on sarcasm.

 

The etymology of the word involves two smaller words in greek - sarx and kasm. Sarx means flesh. Chasm is to divide. To make a sarcastic remark is to seek to tear apart the person to whom the sarcasm is directed.

 

Perhaps my post-convent sensibilities need toughening up just a little, but I have to admit I'm personally growing weary of argument, controversy, personal remarks and the negative timbre many conversations in VS are adopting of late.

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Perhaps my post-convent sensibilities need toughening up just a little, but I have to admit I'm personally growing weary of argument, controversy, personal remarks and the negative timbre many conversations in VS are adopting of late.

 

 

This ^^^^

 

There is no reason why we can't agree to disagree on topics in VS as long as it is done with as much charity as possible. We all get stressed at times and probably argue too hard and too long on a topic that is important to us individually, but at those times, we really need to take a step back and remember that we are all entitled to respect and courtesy.

 

And in VS, there is really no place for criticizing religious communities that are faithful to the Church, just because they don't do things in a way that we would prefer. So thanks for the reminder CT that we need to keep it positive here in VS!   :)

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This ^^^^

 

There is no reason why we can't agree to disagree on topics in VS as long as it is done with as much charity as possible. We all get stressed at times and probably argue too hard and too long on a topic that is important to us individually, but at those times, we really need to take a step back and remember that we are all entitled to respect and courtesy.

 

And in VS, there is really no place for criticizing religious communities that are faithful to the Church, just because they don't do things in a way that we would prefer. So thanks for the reminder CT that we need to keep it positive here in VS!   :)

Similarly there is no reason to criticise those with personally held matters of conscience (an indeed matters of life and death)  as 'disobedient' or 'unsuitable for religious life'  simply because they believe in compassion for animals. Or indeed for criticising someone for excersising their free choice who to discern with. If you refer to my OP, how many people have gone off topic and posted re the above. How many people have actually posted any thing relevant or helpful. you see my point? i was asking for a list of relevant communities. instead vegetarians were very much attacked, criticised and ridiculed.

 

It is true that on Phat I have suffered greatly for what I believe, be it defending the Lord from sacrileges, various debates on Communion in the Hand and samba/charismatic masses, of defending the helpless animals against factory farming and unnecessary killing.  However many people spread lies about me to the mods, saying i had said bad things about Pope Francis, and I was promoting an SSPX order of Carmelites (i just meant it to be a nice photo of nuns).  I think i did the right thing defending these ideas though I could have expressed it better, but natually they are highly sensitive issues. I think it would be very sad if no-one stood up for these things and they went unnoticed.

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This ^^^^

 

There is no reason why we can't agree to disagree on topics in VS as long as it is done with as much charity as possible. We all get stressed at times and probably argue too hard and too long on a topic that is important to us individually, but at those times, we really need to take a step back and remember that we are all entitled to respect and courtesy.

 

And in VS, there is really no place for criticizing religious communities that are faithful to the Church, just because they don't do things in a way that we would prefer. So thanks for the reminder CT that we need to keep it positive here in VS!   :)

 

Thanks Nunsense! 

 

I think that all communities, and families, need our prayers.  I don't know any Catholic who willfully harms animals, but i do know many people who would be very put-out making specality dishes.  Knowing the Sisters that I do, especially the ones who take turns cooking, I know that it would be an onerous burden, especially when so much of their food is donated.

 

Obedience is hard.  A nun I know has a cell phone and is a LMHC.  However, she cannot answer her phone in the convent during quiet prayer time.   She MUST be obediantet even if someone is calling her to help avert a mental health/suicide crisis.  I cannot immagine how hard that must be for her!  Yet God has protected both her and those she serves so that even when she was put in an untenable situation, good came out of it.

 

Obedience is one to a religious superior is one of the most beautiful things on Earth.

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Thanks Nunsense! 

 

I think that all communities, and families, need our prayers.  I don't know any Catholic who willfully harms animals, but i do know many people who would be very put-out making specality dishes.  Knowing the Sisters that I do, especially the ones who take turns cooking, I know that it would be an onerous burden, especially when so much of their food is donated.

 

Obedience is hard.  A nun I know has a cell phone and is a LMHC.  However, she cannot answer her phone in the convent during quiet prayer time.   She MUST be obediantet even if someone is calling her to help avert a mental health/suicide crisis.  I cannot immagine how hard that must be for her!  Yet God has protected both her and those she serves so that even when she was put in an untenable situation, good came out of it.

 

Obedience is one to a religious superior is one of the most beautiful things on Earth.

Thats great.

But one excersises their free will in choosing an order best suited to them.

it is not disobedient or wrong to be vegetarian whilst not under a vow of obedience to a meat eating superior.  

 

Going back on topic to the OP - do you have any orders which you wish to list, as being relevant to the OP?

 

or do you wish to continue criticising the onerous burden of vegetarianism and those annoying vegetarian nuns? I would suggest the latter is off topic.

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Similarly there is no reason to criticise those with personally held matters of conscience (an indeed matters of life and death)  as 'disobedient' or 'unsuitable for religious life'  simply because they believe in compassion for animals. Or indeed for criticising someone for excersising their free choice who to discern with. If you refer to my OP, how many people have gone off topic and posted re the above. How many people have actually posted any thing relevant or helpful. you see my point? i was asking for a list of relevant communities. instead vegetarians were very much attacked, criticised and ridiculed.

 

It is true that on Phat I have suffered greatly for what I believe, be it defending the Lord from sacrilege in various debates on Communion in the Hand and samba/charismatic masses, of defending the helpless animals against factory farming and unnecessary killing.  However many people spread lies about me to the mods, saying i had said bad things about Pope Francis, and I was promoting an SSPX order of Carmelites (i just meant it to be a nice photo of nuns).  I think i did the right thing defending these ideas though I could have expressed it better, but natually they are highly sensitive issues. I think it would be very sad if no-one stood up for these things and they went unnoticed.

 

 

oremus1 -- the point you keep missing is that it is not what you say that offends, as there will always be those of us who agree with some of your points -- offence lies in the way you say things, especially if you get personal about someone. Your posts come across very often as intolerant of the opinions of others - not others who are schismatic or heretical, but others who are in full Communion with the Church and who simply have different opinions to your own. No one is trying to make you suffer for your beliefs - but not all of your beliefs are accepting of the practices that the Church allows such as Communion in the hand or eating meat. And if you really want to 'stand up' for your opinions on topics that you care passionately about, then you need to take your discussions to the Debate Table where this type of adversarial communication is tolerated. On VS - we strive to keep the atmosphere as charitable towards the opinions of others as possible, even when we disagree with each other. We can all get hot under the collar sometimes - so we need to help each other cool down again. 

 

 

It has also been made quite clear that no one can provide you with a list of communities that are vegetarian exclusively and/or who cater to individual dietary requirements - because every community is different and has different approaches to this topic. So if you are waiting for a list ... it probably isn't going to happen here - that has already been stated. What more do you want from this thread? You are never going to get everyone to agree with your point of view- this is the Internet!  :)

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oremus1 -- the point you keep missing is that it is not what you say that offends, as there will always be those of us who agree with some of your points -- offence lies in the way you say things, especially if you get personal about someone. Your posts come across very often as intolerant of the opinions of others - not others who are schismatic or heretical, but others who are in full Communion with the Church and who simply have different opinions to your own. No one is trying to make you suffer for your beliefs - but not all of your beliefs are accepting of the practices that the Church allows such as Communion in the hand or eating meat. And if you really want to 'stand up' for your opinions on topics that you care passionately about, then you need to take your discussions to the Debate Table where this type of adversarial communication is tolerated. On VS - we strive to keep the atmosphere as charitable towards the opinions of others as possible, even when we disagree with each other. We can all get hot under the collar sometimes - so we need to help each other cool down again. 

 

 

It has also been made quite clear that no one can provide you with a list of communities that are vegetarian exclusively and/or who cater to individual dietary requirements - because every community is different and has different approaches to this topic. So if you are waiting for a list ... it probably isn't going to happen here - that has already been stated. What more do you want from this thread? You are never going to get everyone to agree with your point of view- this is the Internet!  :)

Ok point taken. apologies Nunsence   :)

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You might notice that several threads about which you have had strong opinions that are at odds with a majority of VS members have been locked or moved in recent times - but I can assure you that the difference in views is NOT the reason the threads were locked. People are given the space here to be either right or wrong in the claims they make and still be given the benefit of the doubt for being well-meaning, so even if you posted something that everyone disagreed with, it wouldn't be grounds for locking the post. What is at issue here is your tone. The tone in VocationStation is always to be guided by charity, by a consideration of "does what I'm about to say genuinely SERVE/BENEFIT the person to whom I'm responding? Is it edifying or is it an attack?" People are a little bit less guarded in their tone in other parts of Phatmass, for example, in OpenMic or Debate Table... perhaps the style of those boards is a more comfortable fit for the kinds of conversations that you seem to want to pursue?

...

Perhaps my post-convent sensibilities need toughening up just a little, but I have to admit I'm personally growing weary of argument, controversy, personal remarks and the negative timbre many conversations in VS are adopting of late.

 

Ok ... I am locking this thread for the precise reason stated above.  You can discuss an issue, and disagree with people, but there are statements on this thread that are just not good (I don't want to publically embarass anyone so I just simply am not going to quote which ones, but a number have been commented on already).  This is Vocation Station, and while this is allowed in other areas of Phatmass, you can't do this here.

 

And no -- lies have not been spread, but I have used the *evidence* on the board itself for the decisions that were made.  Also realize the mods do not give the phishy tag but dUSt does, and basically there needs to be enough reasons for it.

 

Look ... the way a post comes across on the net is quite different than possibly in the verbal form.  Sarcasm is hard to read.  And we do avoid harshness in this area of the board.

 

Finally I do apologize to those who feel as Catherine Therese ... I have tried to keep this area of the phorum peaceful, where arguments/controversy/personal remarks/and negativity (what I call snarkyness) is limited.  The special rules in VS give me a bit of leeway.  Feel free to use the report button to call attention to what is going on.

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